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Are bullets like these considered "hollow points" under law?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by JellyJar, Dec 7, 2017.

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  1. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    Lehigh Defense makes bullets like these:

    https://www.lehighdefense.com/

    I don't know what to call them except perhaps as fluted bullets.

    If the National Reciprocity bill becomes law and we can really carry in all fifty states and so forth will these bullets be considered "hollow points" under law? The reason I ask is because should we be able to carry nationwide we will have to obey what ever ammo and/or mag restrictions other states may have. For example in New Jersey it is a felon for a citizen to have hollow point ammo outside their home. Does anyone know the legal definition of hollow point bullets in New Jersey and if other states have such restrictions?
     
  2. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    "Emergency screwdrivers, officer, I swear!"
    I don't know what Jersey's official rules are, but they should be available online. I am betting, (safe bet for me, never, ever, ever going to Jersey), that this and the Ruger ARX ammo couldn't possible be considered hollow points for the simple reason that they are not intended or designed to expand on impact, just do that motor boat propeller thing...
     
  3. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    My bet is on states like NJ skirting around the National CC law in a way which minimally follows
    the Federal guidelines of the law, but makes it virtually impossible to ACTUALLY carry concealed
    in the state. But what do I know, I only lived there 50 years.

    Short answer, YES, they are considered hollow-points, until they are classified as something worse.

    We always have the option of denying these states our business, and money.
     
    NIGHTLORD40K, rondog and DoubleMag like this.
  4. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    They are so cute!!! I wonder if they come in .303 British...

    OK, I'll be good. In my limited experience many "restrictions" are made on "scariness" rather than fact. I would think that any bullet that looks that deadly would be banned by the nervous Nellies in Democrat states.
     
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  5. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    It would depend on the definition of "hollow point bullet" in the text of any law prohibiting or regulating them. If they are defined along the lines of "any bullet, the leading tip of which is anything other than a round-tipped or solid flat-tipped bullet", then the Lehigh rounds would certainly be affected.

    But, if the definition is more like "any bullet with a tip that is recessed or hollowed-out for the purpose of causing the bullet to expand upon impact with a soft target", then the Lehigh round would not be within that prohibition.

    Now, if the definition is more like "anything that is different from what we lawmakers know from TV and movies and it scares us even more than we already are and please make it go away..!", well, then... yeah, no go.
     
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  6. Kaeto

    Kaeto Member

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    So you are shooting someone with a Phillips screwdriver? That's not going to be any deadlier than a FMJ.
     
  7. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator

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    The problem with asking if something is X, Y, or Z "under the law," is that we then have to ask, "under which law?" While counter-intuitive, it's entirely possible for those bullets to be classified one way under NJ law, and an entirely different way under NY law, for example.
     
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  8. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    ...and the officer doesn't know either but DOES know you R an out-of-stater and leaving soon. So you get arrested, charged. Then comes bail, court date.
    And you can hire an attorney and fight from there, if you R lucky you'll ''get away'' for $3k-5k large. But don't bet on it. SO I AM A NO GO.

    I further support Danoobies post '' We always have the option of denying these states our business, and money.''
     
  9. pintler

    pintler Member

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    Not the question asked, but related: Federal EFMJ and Hornady Critical Defense are reasonably decent expanding ammo that apparently are not considered 'hollow point' or 'dum dum' by NJ. Googling 'EFMJ New Jersey' and 'Hornady Critical Defense New Jersey' finds a lot of info. Here are a few:

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-jersey-law-on-ammo-definitive.628312/
    https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/30836-hornady-critical-defense/
    https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/20790-efmj-in-nj/

    (I'm a long way from NJ, and so I only did a little searching because I remembered the EFMJ stuff. Do your own verification!)
     
  10. Craig_VA

    Craig_VA Member

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    If National Concealed Carry Reciprocity becomes a reality, it will have absolutely NO EFFECT on the individual states' restrictions on particular types of firearm or ammunition, or on where concealed carry is permitted or not permitted. The only feature of the reciprocity will be that every state must honor any other state's concealed carry permit or license. Therefore, hollow points will still be illegal in NJ, and your question about whether a particular bullet is considered a hollow point needs to be analyzed only in light of NJ law. The situation will not change if we get national reciprocity.
    If you carry in another state with your home state's concealed carry permit in your wallet, you must obey all local and state laws about what and where you can carry.
     
  11. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    I'd consider if the performance advantage was great enough to justify both the expense and potential legal complications. Anyone see results of these in ballistic gelatin?

    Even if they are determined to be legal, you still have the issue of ignorant and overzealous public servants who may put you through the grinder of arrest and prosecution until you hire a lawyer and get a favorable ruling. No thanks. I think I'll just continue to avoid NY, NJ, etc.
     
  12. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

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    There are a number of videos here of the Xtreme Defense and Xtreme Penetrator bullets in gelatin.

    https://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/resouces#video

    I have started carrying these Lehigh bullets in 9MM and .357 Sig when I'm in the forest. I think they would serve me better if I should have to shoot a large animal.
    I would really like to see a review from someone who has successfully used these on a big game hunt.
     
  13. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    Thanks for the link. The videos seem more like advertisements than valid scientific evaluations. I trust gelatin videos a lot more when there is clear evidence of both chronograph measurements as well as meeting the FBI preparation and calibration procedures. No calibration bbs -> invalid results.

    For my sensibilities, I see nothing to justify the extra expense and possible legal issues with the Lehigh Defense bullets over cast lead bullets in the cartridges and applications preferred by my family. They might be worth a harder look in applications that both banned hollow points and required lead free.
     
  14. Bottom Gun

    Bottom Gun Member

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    A Youtube search will turn up other videos showing Underwood ammo shot into ballistic gel. I do recall seeing at least one where the gel was calibrated by firing a BB into the gel and measuring penetration. Some of the videos are of gel shot through various barriers, where the Lehigh bullets seem to excel. Might be worth a little more research.
     
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  15. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Some politician will recall the phrase "cop killer bullet" and apply, and that will be that. Doesn't have to make sense, just a good sound bite.
     
  16. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    IF national reciprocity becomes a reality, and IF I find a need to visit NJ, and IF I decide that the hassle of carrying there is worth it (Lots of "IF's" there), then I will carry a 1911 pattern gun in .45 ACP, and I will carry 230 gr. FMJ ammo.
     
  17. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    The BB into gel calibration was the Military Arms Channel test, and Tim did a great job. The Leigh bullets performed far better than I would have thought, and perfectly repeatedly, as well. They outperformed a Fed HST fired into the very same medium.
    If danoobie is right, and they would be considered HP in Jersey, Jersey is lost. Avid like the plague.
     
  18. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I do not believe Lehigh XP rounds would be considered HP under New Jersey law. Even though they supposedly ACT like hollow points in gelatin. The specific wording I am finding in NJ law is "hollow nose." Lehighs use a solid slug with notches cut out.
     
  19. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Non sequitur.
    Neither major Reciprocity bill has been through conference/reconciliation committee yet, so there are no set boundaries.
    In addition the Senate version has a poison pill in it called "FixNICS" whose actual intent was to find, by fiat, far more people to be ineligible to own arms (note, that bill was penned by Schumer & Feinstein, not exactly on the "pro" side of things). So, that bill will not pass.
    The Senate has already stated it will filibuster the House bill. So, it will not pass.

    Therefore the only remaining question is whether NJ considers the fluted bullets to be legal or not.
     
  20. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    Thanks for the ref. I agree that the tests in this video (calibrated 10% gelatin and measured velocities) have more validity than other sources. If 21.5" of penetration meets your needs better than cast lead and you don't mind $1.50 a shot, then go for it. I would tend to prefer and recommend cast lead and lots and lots of reliability testing and practice. Most real shooters can'd do much practice and reliability testing at $1.50 a pop.

    If that nose is legal and effective, someone should make a cast lead mold for it. (Of course, there are already plenty of great lead molds, but one more for the Jersey specials would not hurt.)
     
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  21. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    The design may be patented.
     
  22. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    Here's what you DON'T see about NJ law. The arresting officer decides to charge you with a weapons offense
    THEY get to decide whether it's EITHER a FMJ bullet or a "hollowpoint". If it's NOT a FMJ, take a wild guess
    what they are going to classify the bullet as? Now see if you can figure out who coached them to do this?
    Oh, perhaps the judge in their jurisdiction? Now, who's word do you think the judge is going to be favorably
    inclined towards? BTW, all the documentation will be filed by the arresting officer, and the prosecuting attorney. Your statements will not only be ignored, they will NOT be recorded, either. Welcome to Justice, Jersey Style.
     
  23. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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  24. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    The actual phrase in New Jersey law is "hollow nose or dum-dum bullet" and that phrase is thoughtfully not defined.
     
  25. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Thank you.

    So finally, after nearly four days, someone decided to look at the actually law. A guy asks a pretty basic question on the law, and we get a bunch of useless responses until now.

    Here's a clue: If you want to help someone who asks about a law, the first thing to do is look at the law. Guesses, speculation, or musings on bullet design don't help.

    We're done here.
     
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