I keep seeing posts or replies that keep mentioning check gages. What are the benefits of check gages? The resizer die should be resizing the brass if set up half way right, a set of calibers will tell you if you need to trim brass. On rifle I run everything through the trimmer and watch the trimmed edge, if its not shinny then its to short and in need of measurement. When a load is worked up the rounds are loaded so this should be an indication that they fit in the cylinder, mag or chamber. All weapons are a little different so if someone is going for ultimate accuracy and or brass life then head space should be checked and neck or other sizer dies set accordingly. I have loaded for a lot of years and never found a need for a check gage so what gives? Are they the latest deal in this fast paced take no responsibility for yourself world we have created?
Are Go, No Go gages needed.
- Thread starter Muddydogs
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MtnCreek
Member
Cartridge gauge is a useful tool to see if your brass is sized within standard tolerance. Not required, but handy. In most cases, your chamber is the best gauge you could have. Go/No Go gauges are required to set headspace on a firearm, not a reloading tool.
If setup halfway right, it's wrong.
USSR
Member
You're confusing GO and NO-GO gages, which are used to establish if your rifle's headspace is within specs, with gages such as the RCBS Precision Mic which are used to properly set up your resizing die and prevent an induced excessive headspace condition by bumping your shoulder back too far.
Don
You will hear from a bunch of bolt gunners who never used a gage in their life and don’t see a reason for one.
Bolt rifles are very tolerant of sloppy ammunition practices. Many of these guys neck size until they break a block of wood, beating down the bolt handle, then they finally partial full length resize, or some other inanity.
If you shoot semi automatic mechanisms which don’t have the camming and extraction power of a bolt gun, you will find that sloppy ammunition will gum up the things.
There are many target shooters whose precision reloading practices are best described as pathological, they know exactly how much they are setting back their shoulders, and every other particular measurement. As some of them are National Champs, maybe they are on to something.
On the most basic level, if you don’t have gages or tools to measure, you are not in control of the process.
Bottlenecked rifle cases are not meant to stretch an indefinite amount. They can be expected to stretch about 0.006” and then they will rupture. That is why manufacturer’s of ammunition and rifles set standards for chamber and cartridge headspace.
This is an example when a shooter has a mismatch between cartridge headspace and chamber headspace.
This tiny difference in the ledge is the difference between Go and No Go. You are never going to get there by the common practice hit and miss die set up methods you will read on the web.
I don’t bother with headspace gages for straight walled pistol or rifle cases.
Bolt rifles are very tolerant of sloppy ammunition practices. Many of these guys neck size until they break a block of wood, beating down the bolt handle, then they finally partial full length resize, or some other inanity.
If you shoot semi automatic mechanisms which don’t have the camming and extraction power of a bolt gun, you will find that sloppy ammunition will gum up the things.
There are many target shooters whose precision reloading practices are best described as pathological, they know exactly how much they are setting back their shoulders, and every other particular measurement. As some of them are National Champs, maybe they are on to something.
On the most basic level, if you don’t have gages or tools to measure, you are not in control of the process.
Bottlenecked rifle cases are not meant to stretch an indefinite amount. They can be expected to stretch about 0.006” and then they will rupture. That is why manufacturer’s of ammunition and rifles set standards for chamber and cartridge headspace.
This is an example when a shooter has a mismatch between cartridge headspace and chamber headspace.
This tiny difference in the ledge is the difference between Go and No Go. You are never going to get there by the common practice hit and miss die set up methods you will read on the web.
I don’t bother with headspace gages for straight walled pistol or rifle cases.
gamestalker
member
No, case and chamber length gages are not an absolute necessity, and are not somthing new. Many hand loader's, including myself, have been reloading sub MOA rifle ammunition without them for decades by adjusting the resizing die so that it sets the shoulder back only enough to allow for a proper chamber fit. Setting the shoulder back too far isn't going to blow your rifle up, but it will have a profound effect on accuracy and brass life. And not setting shoulder's back far enough will cause chambering issues, such as too tight to fit, and rounds that will be difficult to extract.
Resizing dies are actually made to produce a factory like fit, or, one size fits all, if adjusted down more than what is necessary for your particular rifle. Feeler gages can be used between the shell holder and die. Once you've found the right adjustment the feeler gage will allow you to quickly set up your resizing die for future reloading sessions.
Resizing dies are actually made to produce a factory like fit, or, one size fits all, if adjusted down more than what is necessary for your particular rifle. Feeler gages can be used between the shell holder and die. Once you've found the right adjustment the feeler gage will allow you to quickly set up your resizing die for future reloading sessions.
I use a case gauge to load for my semi autos, and still get good case life. As an old Benchrest shooter, I guess I am a little "pathological" in my loading for bolt guns. 
I do not get real carried away with my bolt guns or lever actions though though. They are just for hunting. I do the "partial full length size" thing with them, but no neck turning or any of that jazz, and like to bump the shoulder .002 or .003.
I have tried neck sizing only in a .222 Mag varmint gun, and it worked just fine until things got tight, so I just PFLS now. I do like using bushing dies for the neck for the average target/varmint gun, but I size the body/shoulder a hair as well.
I recommend using a case gauge as Slamfire described to load for auto's, and it keep you out of trouble with bolt guns assuming your chamber is OK.
There are a lot of ways to measure things, but case gauges, go-no go gauges etc are pretty fool proof.
I do not get real carried away with my bolt guns or lever actions though though. They are just for hunting. I do the "partial full length size" thing with them, but no neck turning or any of that jazz, and like to bump the shoulder .002 or .003.
I have tried neck sizing only in a .222 Mag varmint gun, and it worked just fine until things got tight, so I just PFLS now. I do like using bushing dies for the neck for the average target/varmint gun, but I size the body/shoulder a hair as well.
I recommend using a case gauge as Slamfire described to load for auto's, and it keep you out of trouble with bolt guns assuming your chamber is OK.
There are a lot of ways to measure things, but case gauges, go-no go gauges etc are pretty fool proof.
sage5907
Member
If you are a bolt action rifle shooter a RCBS case length micrometer is a really handy tool to have. They cost about $58 on eBay for each caliber. This micrometer lets you mike a fired case to see the exact length of your rifle chamber. For example, a fired case from your rifle may be .003 longer than the SAAMI zero length. If you full length resize a case the case will be about .003 shorter than the SAAMI zero guage. This situation will cause one of your reloaded cases to stretch .006 when fired. I like to size my cases so they are on the zero SAAMI length which places the shell holder .003 below the sizing die. In this situation the case only stretches .003 when fired which extends case life. BW
sage5907
Member
Walkalong has a good point. If you full length resize your cases every time and set the case shoulder back each time you resize a fired case shoulder may never expand to the full length of your chamber unless your shooting heavy loads. To answer your question about a nogo guage. A nogo guage on a 30-06 is about .006 longer than the SAAMI zero length. By using the RCBS case length micrometer and letting the cases expand to the length of the chamber you can tell if your rifle chamber is getting close to exceeding maximum head space. BW
I have three ar15's and a Mini 14 and I want my reloads to function in all rifles.
Every chamber is different so I use a case gage to ensure that my ammo is within SAAMI specs.
But why use a gage? If using full lenght dies you are already sizing to SAAMI specs right? Have you ever had one not fit the gage? If so why? Dies are made a one size fits all if set up right and if using the rounds in different weapons then everything should be FL sized and OAL needs to be kept short to feed in anything just like factory ammo.
Every chamber is different so I use a case gage to ensure that my ammo is within SAAMI specs.
But why use a gage? If using full lenght dies you are already sizing to SAAMI specs right? Have you ever had one not fit the gage? If so why? Dies are made a one size fits all if set up right and if using the rounds in different weapons then everything should be FL sized and OAL needs to be kept short to feed in anything just like factory ammo.
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It is about a complete thought or a fiber that runs through multiple thoughts, or keeping up with more than one thought at a time. I start at the chamber, by knowing the length of the chamber I can adjust the dies meaning I take one measurement from the chamber to the die/press/shell holder back to the chamber. Everyone else needs gages, checkers and wild guestimates, I use standards, transfers and verification, this stuff does not lock me up, no matter the what tool is used when reloading, the only tool I have to size a case is the press with dies and shell holders, when adjusting the die to the shell holder in the press I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage (feeler gage: transfer, standard and verifying tool for adjustments).
Again, I make tools out of anything, others are required to purchase tools, could be because they are consumer oriented, could be they do not understand THE TOOL, others could have something to gain by pushing tools, I do not know. I went to the Dallas Market Hall Gun show last week end, for the most part it was a good day, I was approached in a manner rather rude, I was not on the Internet so he got over it. For the most part I found items others were looking for, RCBS bullet mold handles for $10.00, Lee bullet holds with handles $10.00 each 5 available, RCBS bullet puller colet for 35 cal. $4.00, 38 Super Dillon carbide sizer die $10.00 each, 2 available.
Back to gages like go, no and beyond, I check head space on any chamber in thousands with out a head space gage, considering the go gage will chamber in a go-gage length chamber and in a chamber that could be measured out to infinity, I find the go-gage less than nice to have, the field reject gage will not chamber in a chamber that is go-gage length, it will not chamber in a no go-gage length chamber???? where is the precision?? But, I can check a go-gage length chamber with a no go-gage or a field reject gage, I can check head space in a 30/06 chamber with a 280 Remington case, in thousands, again this stuff does not lock me up. For everyone else, they can purchase gages.
And I said I can convert a go-gage to a gage that measures head space, in thousands, from .005 longer than a minimum length chamber (go-gage length) to infinity, infinity would include no go-length to field reject length, and all the different length in-between and beyond.
‘IT’! has to do with knowledge and experience, and ‘IT’ has to do with careers and vocations, it is possible the only mechanical experience some reloaders have with tools is reloading, that is not an excuse, I am a big fan of product knowledge, I place no limit on someone ability, the only limiting factor is in the hands and minds of the reloader.
F. Guffey
Again, I make tools out of anything, others are required to purchase tools, could be because they are consumer oriented, could be they do not understand THE TOOL, others could have something to gain by pushing tools, I do not know. I went to the Dallas Market Hall Gun show last week end, for the most part it was a good day, I was approached in a manner rather rude, I was not on the Internet so he got over it. For the most part I found items others were looking for, RCBS bullet mold handles for $10.00, Lee bullet holds with handles $10.00 each 5 available, RCBS bullet puller colet for 35 cal. $4.00, 38 Super Dillon carbide sizer die $10.00 each, 2 available.
Back to gages like go, no and beyond, I check head space on any chamber in thousands with out a head space gage, considering the go gage will chamber in a go-gage length chamber and in a chamber that could be measured out to infinity, I find the go-gage less than nice to have, the field reject gage will not chamber in a chamber that is go-gage length, it will not chamber in a no go-gage length chamber???? where is the precision?? But, I can check a go-gage length chamber with a no go-gage or a field reject gage, I can check head space in a 30/06 chamber with a 280 Remington case, in thousands, again this stuff does not lock me up. For everyone else, they can purchase gages.
And I said I can convert a go-gage to a gage that measures head space, in thousands, from .005 longer than a minimum length chamber (go-gage length) to infinity, infinity would include no go-length to field reject length, and all the different length in-between and beyond.
‘IT’! has to do with knowledge and experience, and ‘IT’ has to do with careers and vocations, it is possible the only mechanical experience some reloaders have with tools is reloading, that is not an excuse, I am a big fan of product knowledge, I place no limit on someone ability, the only limiting factor is in the hands and minds of the reloader.
F. Guffey
muddy dog, there are too many reason listed above that would lead an inquiring mind to believe it can not be done, first there is the fire former?? something like chamber a round, pull the trigger and ‘WHA-LA’ the person pulling the trigger is elevated to the status of fire former, then there is the ‘a case is not fully grown until it has been fired 4+ times'???, then there is the ‘full length size after 5 firings to start over’ and I will tell you I can not do that, after firing a case 5 times, the case has been fired 5 times.
I use the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press, I never elevated my self to the status of ‘fire former’ I started out as a ‘former’ I form first then fire, knowing the length of the chamber allows me to adjust the die to the shell holder. No wild guestimates of a fractional turn of the die, when I make an adjustment I use the verifying tool, the standard, the transfer, the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.
F. Guffey
I use the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press, I never elevated my self to the status of ‘fire former’ I started out as a ‘former’ I form first then fire, knowing the length of the chamber allows me to adjust the die to the shell holder. No wild guestimates of a fractional turn of the die, when I make an adjustment I use the verifying tool, the standard, the transfer, the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.
F. Guffey
Clark
Member
I can reload with two rocks and a nail.
All this other gear just makes it faster, easier, and better.
It is like when Burt Reynolds said he could have been a pro ball player, if he had just been faster, bigger, and better.
All this other gear just makes it faster, easier, and better.
It is like when Burt Reynolds said he could have been a pro ball player, if he had just been faster, bigger, and better.
I am sure glad Guffey cleared that up.
Problem is, most folks do not have access to lathes and mills etc.
I could easily make a "gauge" that would give me a measurement of my chamber (datum to breech), if I cared to. Don't really need to, even with my precision rifle.
Some folks are just in love with measuring things I guess.
Problem is, most folks do not have access to lathes and mills etc.
I could easily make a "gauge" that would give me a measurement of my chamber (datum to breech), if I cared to. Don't really need to, even with my precision rifle.
Some folks are just in love with measuring things I guess.
sage5907
Member
Muddydogs, a full length sizing die will size a cartridge case shorter than the zero length on the SAAMI chamber length guage if the shell holder contacts the base of the die. Many reloaders who are trying to improve the process will set a space between the shell holder and the die to limit the amount of shoulder setback to improve case life and to keep the case from traveling forward when the firing pin strikes the primer. This sizing die adjustment has to be performed only once and can accomodate more than one rifle if you know the chamber length of each rifle. BW
ranger335v
Member
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"I am sure glad Guffey cleared that up. --- Problem is, most folks do not have access to lathes and mills etc."
True. Meaning little of his ramblin' is of much use to anyone, even if they can understand what he's talking about!
Muddy, real Go, No-Go and Field gages are precision cut cylinders of solid steel, just "snap gages", that are used by gun makers to check chambers during assembly or for use by gunsmiths checking for bolt wear. In use, they are effectively meaningless to reloaders. What most reloaders call 'headspace gages' are really case gages, made to measure the length of sized cases or loaded rounds from the head to the shoulder.
The Wilson type "drop in" case snap gages check - not measure - the diameter and length from the standard max/minimum size to see if the rounds will properly fit into any gun ever made for that cartridge. That can be good for a reloader like yourself when making cartridges that will be used interchangably in mulitiple guns with the normal variations of SAAMI chambers. But, for a precision handloader wanting to make the best possible ammo specifically for his own rig, those drop-in gages are virtually useless so very few of us bother to buy them. Much better for us are the purpose built gages that actually measure the critical head-to-shoulder length precisely so we can actually tell what we've done in our resizing.
The true precision measuring tools include the devices marketed by Hornady and Sinclair to fit onto the jaws of steel dial/digital calipers that read in thousants of an inch. The RCBS Precision Case Mics and Innovative Technologies' measuring tools effectively do the same thing, beautifully, without a caliper but the cost goes up with them. Most reloaders who seriously want to produce the highest possible ammo will have some such measureing device to allow them to adjust sizing dies exactly as needed. Or at least as precisely as is possible; not all cases in the same box will respond to firing or resizing exactly the same.
When doing precision reloading for individual bolt rifles it seems best to measure the maximum head-to-shoulder length of the fired cases and simply resize so the maximum FL sized cases just barely match the fired ones. Auto and some lever/pump rifles may benefit from setting the shoulders set back a couple of thousants more. ONLY by using a proper gage that reads in thousants can those important but tiny differences be determined.
Hornady's case 'head space' tool isn't the greatest, IMHO, but mine actually works very well even tho I prefer RCBS Case Mics for convienence. I suspect Hornady sells about ten times more of their's than the others put together due to the modest cost and great flexability of what can be done with them; a loader who gets Hornady's case AND bullet seating inserts will have all he really needs! (Well, having a Sinclair concentricity gage is nice too!)
True. Meaning little of his ramblin' is of much use to anyone, even if they can understand what he's talking about!
Muddy, real Go, No-Go and Field gages are precision cut cylinders of solid steel, just "snap gages", that are used by gun makers to check chambers during assembly or for use by gunsmiths checking for bolt wear. In use, they are effectively meaningless to reloaders. What most reloaders call 'headspace gages' are really case gages, made to measure the length of sized cases or loaded rounds from the head to the shoulder.
The Wilson type "drop in" case snap gages check - not measure - the diameter and length from the standard max/minimum size to see if the rounds will properly fit into any gun ever made for that cartridge. That can be good for a reloader like yourself when making cartridges that will be used interchangably in mulitiple guns with the normal variations of SAAMI chambers. But, for a precision handloader wanting to make the best possible ammo specifically for his own rig, those drop-in gages are virtually useless so very few of us bother to buy them. Much better for us are the purpose built gages that actually measure the critical head-to-shoulder length precisely so we can actually tell what we've done in our resizing.
The true precision measuring tools include the devices marketed by Hornady and Sinclair to fit onto the jaws of steel dial/digital calipers that read in thousants of an inch. The RCBS Precision Case Mics and Innovative Technologies' measuring tools effectively do the same thing, beautifully, without a caliper but the cost goes up with them. Most reloaders who seriously want to produce the highest possible ammo will have some such measureing device to allow them to adjust sizing dies exactly as needed. Or at least as precisely as is possible; not all cases in the same box will respond to firing or resizing exactly the same.
When doing precision reloading for individual bolt rifles it seems best to measure the maximum head-to-shoulder length of the fired cases and simply resize so the maximum FL sized cases just barely match the fired ones. Auto and some lever/pump rifles may benefit from setting the shoulders set back a couple of thousants more. ONLY by using a proper gage that reads in thousants can those important but tiny differences be determined.
Hornady's case 'head space' tool isn't the greatest, IMHO, but mine actually works very well even tho I prefer RCBS Case Mics for convienence. I suspect Hornady sells about ten times more of their's than the others put together due to the modest cost and great flexability of what can be done with them; a loader who gets Hornady's case AND bullet seating inserts will have all he really needs! (Well, having a Sinclair concentricity gage is nice too!)
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beatledog7
Member
So, how does the average reloader know how much to size bottleneck cases? I've read my manuals and the instructions that came with my dies, but how does one really know? How can one accurately know how much to bump the shoulders, if at all? And how does one know when it's been accomplished? Can this be done without all the fancy gauges and such?
sage5907
Member
Ranger335v, your paragraph and comments about the RCBS precision case mic is right on. BW
AABEN
Member
The no go gage is used to check head space. I use them when looking at used military guns.
Back in the days before I had gages, I set up my dies by removing the cocking mechanism, extractors, from the associated rifle. I then sized the case, closed the bolt on it, if there was resistance, I lowered the die a bit more. That was how you did it.
You can't measure tenth of an inch when your only gages are cubits and finger joints.
When I finally got Wilson type gages and went and measured cases I had sized, according to the technique in the last paragraph, cartridge headspace was all over the place.
My M1917 270, the receiver seats and bolt lugs are tapered so the bolt keeps camming all the way down. My 270 cases were all off. My 7.5 Swiss, it was very bad. That straight pull mechanism with all the cams and leverages working through a 8 inch (guess) long bolt mechanism, I don't know what I was feeling, but the cases were all way off. My 375 H&H belted magnum, I did not want to remove the bolt face ejector or the spring loaded extractor. When I got one of those Sinclair special gages, all cases were way off. Way, way off.
See the problem in using even a stripped bolt is that the bolt handle leverages and cam angles, bolt binding, and god knows what else that is in the system, totally ruin any sensitivity to bolt closure.
Another issue is that brass cases are springy and don't all retract the same amount. Brass from different manufacturers is of different annealing and work hardening, and they all come out of the die a little different length. That is why I usually have a case gage on the bench, I check the current brass being sized, and often, more often than I like, I have to adjust the die up or down a little bit because this brass is springing back a bit more or less than that last set.
It all depends on how much you need to control the cartridge case headspace. When shooting rapid fire, I want my bolt gun bolt to close without any extra resistance. It knocks me out of position to have to wrestle a bolt down. It is not worth driving two hours, a match fee, and spending all day at a match, just to have my score ruined by sloppy ammunition. I also don't want any jams or safety issues with Garands and M1a's.
People who just shoot on a bench, I don't think it makes any difference in anything if they have to get a rubber mallet and beat the bolt handle closed, or open.
Yep, and brass springs back differently in chambers as well.
I have talked here before about adjusting the sizer die down down as my set of match brass work hardened and sprang back more (6PPC) to keep the tight tolerances, and was pretty much scoffed at or ignored.
Folks think once they have set a die with one piece of brass all the rest will come out the same way, forever, but as you have posted, it doesn't.
30Cal
Member
If you use a FL or SB die, you probably ought to have one of these. It's worth a dozen bucks to just know that you've done the job right.
dmazur
Member
Until I got a Wilson type cartridge headspace gauge, all I knew was that some of my reloads fit one rifle, but not another. Factory ammo fit, so I knew it was something wrong with my setup.
I was just getting into reloading bottleneck cartridges, after several years of experience with .45 ACP, so this "headspace thing" was a new concept.
I wound up buying GO/ NOGO gauges just to convince myself that the rifles' chambers were within spec. Actually, one wasn't. (And when that rifle was rebuilt, I insisted that it be chambered to specifications.)
Then I dropped the GO / NOGO gauges into the Wilson gauges to convince myself that they were measuring the same thing. And, yes, for .30-06 the difference is only 0.006" and the gauges agree with each other.
I also learned that the amount of lube can affect resizing, as can the hardness of the brass. It isn't just the die setting.
I believe the basic answer to your question is that the die has to be set up correctly for proper full-length resizing. It isn't enough to simply use a full-length die vs. a neck-sizing die. It still has to be adjusted.
I've read that some manufacturers try to prevent the user inducing excess headspace by manufacturing the die for SAAMI minimum when the die touches the shellholder, but presses have different amounts of "slack" or flex so this isn't an exact thing.
As others have said, it's pretty hard to see what is going on when the dimensions are this small. However, due to the limited ability of the case to withstand stretching, the small dimensions are still important.
The Wilson and Dillon drop in case gauges for bottle neck cartridges only check overall case length and the base to shoulder distance. They do not check the diameter. The other dimensions are cut generously. They are not chamber gauges.
Cartridges can fit into the gauge and not fit your chamber. Read the manufacturer's fine print.
Case gauges for hand gun cartridges are chamber gauges. In theory, if a handgun case fits the gauge it will fit any chamber. But, the barrel of the firearm that the cartridge is loaded for is the best chamber gauge.
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