Are Go, No Go gages needed.

[fguffey]

That is where shims or "feeler gauges" come in handy, to take up the space between the die and shell holder to eliminate press flex when the die is not adjusted to hit the shell holder, which is seldom the best way to size. OK, just not the best.
__________________

Just a suggestion, but, it is possible shims and feeler gages are not for everyone. I use the feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder, after adjusting the die off the shell holder the press, when the ram, is raised is in a ‘NO LOAD CONDITION’ meaning when the ram is raised the die does not contact the shell holder and, therefore, there is no press flex.(no load), until a case is installed into the shell holder. When the case is sized and it is a 6 time fired case it could have too much “offset rebound, jump back, recovery, memory, spring back or snap back” and that is the reason the ‘wild guestimate of a fractional turn’ of the die is such a big part of a reloaders world.

Back to SKIP’S shims, the die must be adjusted FIRST to determine .000, then the locking ring must be secured, after sizing a case and the reloader must determine if less sizing is desired, if less sizing is desired, the die can be removed from the press and a shim added, after the shim is added the die in installed into the press ‘WITH LESS LOAD on the press. Then, if that does not work, remove the die add/subtract another shim or combinations of shims, and I ask “WHY!!!!!!??? Back to shims, it is possible shims and feeler gages are not for everyone.

WHY? If a reloader purchased Skip’s shims, that is OK, when using Skip’s shims the reloader can verify his adjustments when setting up the press, die and shell holder for no load with a feeler gage, I understand the learning curve is different for most ???, but, when verifying Skip’s shims the reloader could realize adjusting the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage is the same as adding Skip’s shims below the locking ring IF THE RELOADER adjusted the die to .000 (indexed) first, THEN secured the locking ring and leaves it secured while adding/subtracting/removing/installing the die with shims. Then there are those that do not get the connection, and that is OK.

Again, close is OK for grenades and horse shoes, I choose to form cases before firing, I choose to off set the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I am not interested in firing first to form, firing to form is not necessary, as Jimmy said the chicken crossed the road to show the opossum it could be done, I do not know the limits, I do not set the limits, I am a big fan of walking before running.

Again, I form cases for short chambers, I can not do that with 5 time fired cases, in the perfect world, the reloader would choose new cases or once fired cases, after that the method for forming cases for short chambers become a method/technique for sizing cases that offer more resistance to sizing than the presses ability to overcome. Then there are the die/shell holder grinders, not necessary but it sound good when a problem is solved without understanding the cause of the problem.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Walkalong, The choice of tools when measuring is limitless for me, again, I took a picture of my micrometers and gages about 4 months ago, the picture weighed 400 pounds, the feeler gage is a carry over from humble beginnings, I had a web site for reloaders, I posted 20 pictures to get it started, no one added a picture or left a comment, on a farAway forum one fiddle playing firefighter gunsmith in the panhandle of Florida made a comment, he said something like “He has got stuff” then said some nice things about ‘Charlie Brown’ our lab, Thinking that most thought it was showing off, I shut the site down and discontinued posting pictures.

The feeler gage, most humble of gages is a transfer, it is a standard, the feeler gage can be purchased for $11.00 or less, or $50.00 +, I have depth micrometers, I have height gages, I also have one of the most common tools found on the reloaders bench, ‘the dial caliper’ a reloader with a dial caliper does not need a depth micrometer, the dial caliper is a depth micrometer, again, I am not trying to show off, using the depth micrometer with the wilson case gage , is awkward and clumsy, in my opinion.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

I took a picture of my micrometers and gages about 4 months ago, the picture weighed 400 pounds

That's a big picture.

Mine would be considerably lighter.

 

[ranger335v]

"Mine would be considerably lighter."

And fully as useful, and easier/more consistant to use too; wonder why so few people took 'advantage' of all the help on his web site?

 

[GLOOB]

That is where shims or "feeler gauges" come in handy, to take up the space between the die and shell holder to eliminate press flex

fguffey understands this problem, but I'll say it more bluntly. When you use a feeler gauge to take up slack on a die/shellholder combination that's too short, you're not eliminating press flex, you're introducing it. When the feeler gauge is removed, the press is free to flex less, dependent upon each particular case. And because the harder the case, the more flex you get, you're just compounding the variation that you'll end up with. The harder cases will get sized less AND rebound more. The softer cases will get sized more and rebound less. You have increased your sizing error.

Once you let that cat out of the bag, it's always there. Indexing off the die/shellholder might not be the best solution for everyone, but it's the best for me with my press, rifle, and dies. With my setup, I actually have eliminated press flex from the equation. Even the hardest cases get sized the same. I wouldn't want to mess with that by shortening my die. If brass is hard enough to rebound out of spec, I'd rather anneal it than open up a new can of worms.

 

[Walkalong]

It shouldn't if the press is cammed over, but yes, there is always flex to some degree.

 

[Walkalong]

When I measure OAL of rounds coming out of the seater when setting the LNL press up to load, (no sizer, expander in station 2, seater in 4, and crimp in 5) it will always measure .002 to .005 shorter, depending on amount of crimp, without the crimp die in the mix. That is just from the force to crimp, which is much less than the force to size. The O part of the press flexes, even with that light pressure.

 

[Steel Talon]

It's a cheap investment that provides great information. I use them for all of my bottle neck cases, and magnum straight walls (cause they were a gift)

 

[GLOOB]

It shouldn't if the press is cammed over, but yes, there is always flex to some degree.

Completely disagree. There is ALWAYS press flex. When cammed over, there's press flex. When not cammed over, there's press flex.

Whenever you're adjusting your die so that it touches the shell plate at the top, whether cammed over or not, there's still press flex. It's just that the contact between the die and shellholder is causing some of that flex, so that the sizing is consistent. If one piece of brass doesn't flex the press much, doesn't matter. The contact between the die and shellholder will take up that flex. On every stoke, the brass will be sized to the same length, because the shellholder will contact the die on every stroke.

If you have to leave a gap between die and shellholder for w/e reason, then the amount of press flex will be dependent wholly on the piece of brass that's in there, and it will vary as such. Your sizing will not be as consistent, unless every brass is the same thickness, size, shape, hardness, and lubricity. Some brass will cause less flex, and the shellholder will end up closer to the die. Some brass will be harder and the holder will end up farther away from the die.

If you have a long chamber, then you may have no choice. But if your die sizes correctly adjusted all the way down, then I don't see why you wouldn't want to index off the contact. Remember, there's flex either way. All you have to do is adjust the die/shellholder contact so that it causes just a little more extra flex than the hardest of your brass in order to maintain contact on every stroke. I.e, ideally, the shellholder would just kiss the die on the hardest brass. That would necessitate that the shellholder would hit the die a hair sooner on the softer brass, then continue on to stretch the press just a hair more. But the end amount of stress on the press would be no more than that caused by the harder brass, so what's the difference?

This is why the instructions on your rifle dies tell you to turn the die down an extra quarter turn after contact. So that it takes up the flex and touches on every stroke. If you think you can grind down your dies and get extra "tunability" for harder brass, you're right. But you'll also end up needing to do more tuning. Maybe this is enough to start of a lifelong compulsion to collect feeler gauges and micrometers and tell other people how to ruin their dies?

 

[fguffey]

Reloading press-no load:

"Just a suggestion, but, it is possible shims and feeler gages are not for everyone. I use the feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder, after adjusting the die off the shell holder the press, when the ram, is raised is in a ‘NO LOAD CONDITION’ meaning when the ram is raised the die does not contact the shell holder and, therefore, there is no press flex.(no load), until a case is installed into the shell holder. When the case is sized and it is a 6 time fired case it could have too much “offset rebound, jump back, recovery, memory, spring back or snap back” and that is the reason the ‘wild guestimate of a fractional turn’ of the die is such a big part of a reloaders world"

F. Guffey

 

[GLOOB]

I use the feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder, after adjusting the die off the shell holder the press, when the ram, is raised is in a ‘NO LOAD CONDITION’ meaning when the ram is raised the die does not contact the shell holder and, therefore, there is no press flex.(no load), until a case is installed into the shell holder.

Yup, and once that brass is in there causing flex, the die-to-shellholder gap will vary based on each individual brass. This is insane.

‘wild guestimate of a fractional turn’ of the die is such a big part of a reloaders world"

Not when talking about sizing die adjustment. The extra quarter turn is there to ensure consistent contact, and as such it doesn't have to be precise... as long as your die is all the way down. When you very precisely and meticulously adjust your die to float off the shellholder, you're going to get more variation.

Here's a suggestion. If you meticulously keep track of your brass such that you routinely get an entire batch that doesn't size quite enough. And you don't want to anneal it, for some reason. Then buy a spare shellholder and grind it down just enough so it will size this brass for another few generations. Heck, maybe you're so averse to annealing, you might want 3-4 different sized shellholders.

When you are sizing newer brass, use the regular shellholder.

But in either case, avoid leaving a gap if at all possible. If you have a long chamber, then you will not be able to do this with stock dies, of course. You might be able to order a custom die/shellholder or maybe even install a permanent shim on top of a shellholder.

 

[Walkalong]

maybe even install a permanent shim on top of a shellholder

I have done that.

That is where these Redding shell holders could come in handy, at least on a single stage any way.

If you can size with the shell holder firmly against the die body, then press flex is negated. then all you have to worry about is brass strength. With a batch of cases all fired the same amount of times this is usually easy to keep control of. Mixed range brass is a whole nother ball game.