Are high-end bullets really necessary?

[wolfe28]

Hey there;

Just thought I would post this one to the collected intelegencia of the high road. Do you all think that the high-end or high-tech bullets are necessary for hunting? Assuming that you are hunting with a .30 cal. rifle with realistic and accurate shot placement, is it necessary to use something like a Hornady Interbond, Nosler/Winchester XP3, so on and so forth, projectile, or will something like a basic Sierra Game King do just fine?

Thanks, D

 

[NailGun]

Funny you should mention Sierra Game King bullets. I have not had good luck with them for white tail deer. Two of the 4 deer I shot, using them in a 7mm Rem. Mag. were tore up really bad inside from jacket/core separation. The other two ran quite a ways after being hit. All shots were between 100 and 165 yards, and all were placed just behind the shoulder. Accuracy was outstanding! I even hit a ground squirrel at a little over 2oo yards with one. ..yeeehaaa! Whatever Hornady uses in their Custom (I suspect Interlock) seemed to have better terminal performance, that according to the one deer I surveyed. This year I am trying Swift Scirocco and CT Partition bullets. If you are going to shoot a 30-30, Winchester Silvertips always produced bang-flops for me. So...all that to say YUP! it makes a difference. NailGun

 

[Sunray]

I've never used high end bullets. Never had any problem either. SGK's are a high end bullet in my opinion. Use the bullet that your rifle shoots best.

 

[BruceB]

The cost of a premium bullet, versus the total cost of even a local-area day hunt, amounts to a pathetic figure....mere pennies extra for a RELIABLE bullet.

Back in the '70s, when Nosler Partitions were almost the only "premium" bullet commonly available, a group of my friends and I engaged in a several-year survey of shooting results on barren-ground caribou. As residents of the Northwest Territories, we were each allowed at least five caribou per year, and in some years as many as ten animals. With six of us shooting, and often using our wives' tags as well, we accumulated a good bit of data on a lot of caribou.

We reported the range, the shot angle, penetration, and estimated time to immobility and death. Recovered bullets were weighed and measured.

BG caribou can weigh from a couple of hundred pounds up to as much as 400 and more (rarely, I think) for a fat bull.

We determined that the Nosler Partition in a VARIETY of weights and calibers (6mm/95 grain to .338 Winchester Magnum/250, and including such rounds as .270, 7mm Remington Mag, .30-06, .300 H&H, and .308 Norma) ROUTINELY killed better, quicker, and with greater penetration than Hornadys, Sierras, Remingtons, Winchesters, Speers in the same weights and calibers.....you name it.

Did the animals die with the non-Noslers? Sure, but not as reliably as when we used the Noslers. More rounds were needed fairly often, and many of the "other" bullets shed large amounts of weight or even came apart. It was rare to recover Noslers from the animals, and I for one really WANT two holes in any animal I shoot.

A bullet that loses a lot of weight or fragments badly, even though it killed THAT animal, is serving notice that it MIGHT fail on the next one. I won't accept that uncertainty. Even before those caribou tests, I used Partitions almost exclusively for moose, bear, and caribou, and never had a hint of a problem.

In later years, I find myself using Barnes X bullets for some rifles which prefer them, and my .338 Savage shoots TSXs as if it thinks it's a benchrest rifle! Same thing, though, the after-impact performance is utterly reliable.

If I burn as much as ten gallons of gas on a day's hunting trip, I've spent as much for gas THAT DAY as I would have spent for a box of 50 premium bullets which would last me for MANY hunting trips! Shoot cheaper bullets for practice, but get GOOD bullets for game.

 

[Shoney]

Which cartridge in 30cal, 30m1 or 30-378 or the 20 some cartridges in 30 cal.

Please define high-end bullet??? Price does not make a premium bullet, just an expensive one.

I've use about 8 brands of bullets on big game, I consider Hornady Interlocs a premium bullet, and I consider Nosler Partition a premium bullet. Big difference in prices, but terminal results have been very good on the deer, elk, antelope for the Hornady in 6 calibers in 10 cartridges. Terminal results for the Nosler partition are excellent for performance, but depending on the conditions of the shot, can be very meat destructive as experienced in 4 cartridges. Remington CoreLokt has been solid performers in 6mm, 270, 30-06 and 300WM. But the Game King in my 300WM as tested on over 30 deer and antelope, the term throwing hand grenades comes to mind. Overall, Rem CoreLokt has been the best bullet for kill and yet least meat destruction in the 06 based cartridges.

For elk in 6mmRem, 100Gr Nosler Partition. I've not found another bullet as accurate with its terminal performance, but it does destroy lots of meat on deer & ant. So I use Horn Interloc on avg deer and antelope.

In 6.5x55, 270, 280, 303 Sav, 308, 30-06 either Horn Interloc or CoreLokt for everything.

300WM is only used with 200gr Nosler Partition, for trophy deer & elk, and general moose and as G-bear protection. I have a friend who uses 180 Failsafes on everything including several African Buffalo

Why do I make these statements????????? A total of over 48 years of hunting with between 550 and 600 big game animals tested. And if you include my immediate family and friends, well over 1000.

 

[Delmar]

It all depends on what you are hunting. For example, I hunt white tails in the Texas hill country every year. Used to use ballistic tips in my 308 because of their reputation for accuracy. Now, we are not talking elephants by any stretch-most of those deer are 100-150 pounds, with the occasional going close to 200.

I can tell you that for me, switching to 165 grain Hornady BTSP's gave very close to the same accuracy, <1 moa and they work just fine. I have tried the Nosler partitions, and they do indeed make a couple of serious holes in Bambi's mom and dad, but I don't think they are necessary for medium game. The exit wound on a 130 yard shot I made a few years ago was HUGE! Like as in bigger than a coffee cup huge.

Now, if I were going after elk, moose or bear, I would want something like a partition or better.

 

[Cosmoline]

For high-velocity magnums and souped up modern rifle cartridges? YES. For the old standards? No, probably not. If you keep your impact vels between 1800 and 2400 a good quality standard SP round should be fine. When you start cranking things up, you start turning game kings into grenade kings.

 

[wolfe28]

Thanks, one and all.

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. The information you all have gained from years of experience will definitely keep me and others who are new to reloading and hunting on the right track.

Please define high-end bullet??? Price does not make a premium bullet, just an expensive one.

Sorry that I didn't define what I meant by a high-end bullet. Assuming that a standard one is something like a SGK, a basic jacketed lead bullet with a spitzer tip, and a jacket of uniform thickness, I would consider a high-end bullet one that is more complicated than that (varying thickness jacket, partitioned core, specalized core material other than lead, polymer tip, things like that). Obviously, if I'm off on what I should consider a basic style of bullet, please let me know (I'm still new at the hunting and reloading thing).

Which cartridge in 30cal, 30m1 or 30-378 or the 20 some cartridges in 30 cal.

I, personally am thinking of a .308, since that is the rifle that I have. I use it mostly for target shooting right now, but I'm hopefully going to be taking it hunting this year as well. I figure that there a bunch of other folks out there thinking of asking the same question, so I wanted to leave my question with somewhat of an open end.

It all depends on what you are hunting.

For me, I would honestly like to be able to work up one load that I will be able to use on deer, elk and a few other large game animals. I know that taking a .308 after some of the bigger animals in North America might not be the best idea, but due to my current financial embarassment (insert the words "broke as all get out" if you like), I'm having a hard time justifying several different hunting loads if one will do what I need. I'm also keeping the hunting list down to what my .308 can handle. When I'm a little more well off, I be in the market for something a little bigger for the bigger critters.

Again, thanks to everyone who has responded so far, and keep the new ones coming.

D

 

[redneck2]

There's an article that kinda addresses this in the new Handloader magazine. Basically, their tact is to find a standard bullet and premium bullet of the same weight that shoot to (or very near to) the same point of impact. Use the cheapies for practice and non-vital stuff and use the good bullets for game hunting. He gives some examples. If you want, I'll dig it out.

If you handload, I really can't see the big deal for most rifles used for serious hunting. As an example, standard Remingtons run maybe $15/100. Partitions run $26/50. How many are you going to shoot a year?? I suspect the average guy shoots less than 50 hunting rounds a year for both practice and during the hunt.

When I worked in the gun shop, I'd have guys come in the night before a hunt out west. They'd buy a new rifle, have us bore sight it, and get the cheapest ammo we had. Can't imagine spending all that money and taking all that time and effort and then depend on the cheapest thing you could get the night before the hunt.

Even Barnes-X run $33/50. To me, it's worth an extra $20 to harvest an animal cleanly. YMMV.

 

[HankB]

My "standard" hunting load in my .30/06 uses a 180 Nosler Partition. As previously stated above, the cost of a bullet is small compared to the cost of a hunt, so why scrimp?

On the other hand, if you're just talking about deer hunting, just about any name-brand hunting bullet of appropriate weight will do the job with good shot placement.

 

[Ndenway]

in my 308s I use the hornaday 165gr BTSP for most of my hunting/shooting needs, for a special deer hunt where ranges might be farther I use either the 165gr hornaday SST or nosler balistic tip because the expand at farther ranges when the SPs normally punch on through,

when using my 300 win mag I use the speer 200gr spitzer SP @ 2900fps, or if its long range on thin skinned game I use the hornaday 180gr BTSP or nosler balistic tip.


only thing about using balistic tips or SSTs is they make big holes going in and coming out.

 

[temmi]

I glad you ask… I have been on the fence about “high end” bullets… I normally shoot Nosler BTs and frankly never had a problem… and when I have used Horn Interlocks I have never had a problem… until 2 months ago. My sons & I were Hog hunting in east Texas and a mid size hog shows up 20 yards or less from my son’s stand. He was shooting a 30-06, 150gr Horn interlock at about 2900ft/sec at the muzzle. His shot took the hog behind the shoulder in the ribs… the bullet failed (came apart) completely. A small peace did exit but most of it ended up in the lungs & heart. It was a good clean kill but if the shot would have hit the shoulder I believe it would have been a different story.
The Bonded bullets I believe will work better at higher velocities and closer ranges.

 

[Clark]

I have lots of data points on quick shoks and Vmax bullets hitting ground squirrells and rock chucks.

I wish I had lots of data on Nosler partitions and Barnes Triple Shock bullets hitting elk.

But I don't have those experiences, and hunting elk costs me hundreds of dollars per day, so I have to go with the folklore of internet forums and buy premium bullets.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I' ve used the two-bullet system for many years, developing my loads with low-cost conventional bullets and then switching to a premium bullet for serious hunting.

I shot an elk once with Bigfoot Wallace (my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen.) This bull came rushing down through the timber while I desperately tried to find a hole to shoot through. He reached a logging road, jumped down into the road, and was poised for the next jump down the mountain when I fired.

I found him a hundred yards down the mountain, at the end of a trail through the snow-dusted leaves, his fighting tines driven into the ground. When I skinned out his right side, the right leg fell off. When I skinned out the other side, the left leg fell off. There was a hole the size of my thumb through his body. Any bullet that will blow off both front legs and take out the heart and lungs in the process is worth having. This one was a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket.

At the other end of the scale, 35-grain Hornady V-Maxes reach over 3,000 fps from my M82 Kimber in .22 Hornet, shoot into a half inch at 100 yards, and kill fragile critters like crows as if they were hand grenades out beyond 200 yards.

 

[Art Eatman]

The great majority of my deer kills (I dunno, 40+) have been with either a .243 (85-grain Sierra HPBT) or my .30-'06. Call it half and half, maybe.

I've seen no difference in effect with Sierra's 150-grain flat-base or the 150-grain SPBT with one exception. The exception was a very close range shot with the boat-tail; the bullet blew up in the buck's neck. Paralyzed, though. (The Sierra folks said that I'm pushing that bullet too fast for close range hits. I should have used the flat base.)

The Sierra performance has been no different from the Dastardly Deeds of either the 150-grain Hornady Spire Point or the 150-grain Remington Bronze Point. Pretty much DRT, with very few exceptions.

Elk? I'd probably choose a heavier and thicker-jacketed bullet for better penetration. Most likely the Sierra 180-grain SPBT. My rationale is this: On my 500-yard steel plate, the 150-grain makes a dimple; the 180-grain makes a little crater with some splashback. The 150 is great for deer in the 100-yard to 400-yard distance, so the 180 oughta work on elk to around 300 yards.

Art

 

[wolfe28]

More great ideas.

Okay, obviously the high-end bullets are worth it, because they are going to do what you want. But what about this idea of using one projectile for load development and the premium bullet for the actual hunt? Lets assume that I'm letting my scientific background (anal retentiveness, if you like) get the best of me; even if the bullets are of simmilar weight and shape (both boat tail spitzer tips as an example), aren't the variations in balistic coeficient and sectional density going to make make the two perform differently? Is the point of this to get you "in the ballpark" with the cheaper bullet, and then fine tune things on the premium?
Thanks again,
D

 

[wally]

even if the bullets are of simmilar weight and shape (both boat tail spitzer tips as an example), aren't the variations in balistic coeficient and sectional density going to make make the two perform differently?

The point of all the ballistics testing and tables is that bullets of the same BC and velocity fly the same trajectory. Once they hit something all bets are off but in air, areodynamic differences in the bullets would mean differences in their BC.

If you can find a cheap bullet with the same BC as you favorite hunting round, you should be able develop loads for the premium bullets without needing to shoot a lot of them and make effective practice ammo, assuming the cheap bullets are uniform enough to shoot tight groups.

--wally.

 

[uk roe hunter]

excellant thread

Guys,
This is a great thread, this is why i visit thr.

I use speer 150gr spitzers in my .30-06 and 100gr speer spitzers in my .243. The main quarry i hunt is roe deer, they are small deer.

The bullet always exits and provides apparently even and steady expansion giving great clean kills. These are "low end" bullets. In october i am going to scotland for red stags, they are Big deer, like a small elk. I might use 165 partitions for this.

I appreciatte your experience guys, keep up the good work.

steve

 

[GooseGestapo]

Depends on what you are calling "High-End" bullets.

I've had outstanding success with the cup-and core bullets through the years.
I've also had some failures to expand, and some "blow ups".
All the "blow ups" killed, so I don't count those as true failures.
I've had some failure to expand that resulted in lost game, and I do count those as failures.

That stated, the Nosler Partitions have never failed me.

Blow-ups:
Hornady 35gr V-max: Yeah, can't fault this one, small deer DRT from .22Hornet w/chest shot.
Nosler Balistic TIP: circa 1987, First year of .257 100gr. Shot at 25yds, 3,100fps mv. 3"entry wound on ribcage of 150lb deer, no exit; deer ran 100yds before dropping.

Failure to expand:
Circa 1988: Sierra 170gr FP, mv~2,250fps .30wcf. Range~150yds. 3 deer consecutively hit, all three observed chest hits; two lost, one recovered after running ~250yds. Pencil sized entry and exit to heart/lung. Found by "accident", only blood loss was a puddle around exit wound of frothy blood where blood was aspirated by slow dying animal.

Circa 2003: Hit Elk at lased 250yds w/Hornday .338" 200gr Interlok. Small entry/exit wound. Tracked elk for 2.6mi up a long canyon. Missed difficult shot at ~400yds. Another hunting party caught up with elk next morning and took elk before I could "catch up" with it.

Circa 2005: Hit 4 deer one PM. Lost three, recovered one. One recovered was a direct spine hit. Exit wound was bullet diameter. lost approx 1" of neck meat. Bullet: Hornady .284" 140gr SST, 2,800fps mv.

Circa 1993: Shot 9 times and 5 different mule deer does in Montana. After spotter observed bullets impacting erratically around mule deer doe at 250yds, I tested ammo on 24x30" empty "pampers" box. One hit- full sideways key-hole on lower left corner. Switched to "prararie dog load", 3shot group 1.5" POI/POA. Killed next deer shot at, at 375yds.
Bullet was Hornady .257 117gr BTSP Interlok.

So, even some so-called "premium" bullets can fail.

Lot to Lot variation can cause anomalies in "good bullets".

But, Never had a Nosler Partition "fail".

 

[strambo]

On Sierra Gamekings

Accuracy was outstanding!

I second that. I don't hunt, but from an accuracy standpoint the best group I ever got from my M70 .300WM was with handloaded 200gr gamekings. .44" 4 shot group at 100yds. With Federal premium factory ammo and the same bullet, I get .9" 5 shot groups. I've only shot these a little as my main bullet is the 190gr Berger VLD, but gamekings would be my choice for hunting...if I did...but I don't.

On the BC stuff, unless you are into long range hunting, a difference in BC's of a few tenths will be miniscule. A .477 BC Speer 165gr BTSP practice bullet will drop 59.2" at 500 yds from a 100yd zero, A .457 BC Barnes 165gr "XLC" premium bullet will impact 60.2" low at 500yds. Initial velocity for both was set at 2700fps. So a 1" difference at 500 yds with a 2 tenths BC difference. I made no effort to try to find a closer match, I picked a 165gr premium boat tail and 165 practice boat tail round at random.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

even if the bullets are of simmilar weight and shape (both boat tail spitzer tips as an example), aren't the variations in balistic coeficient and sectional density going to make make the two perform differently?

I developed a load for Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen using cheap bullets -- a long process because there is no validated load data for this cartridge.

Then I switched to Nosler Partition Jackets for hunting. When I get to Colorado (where I hunt elk), the first thing I do is got to the range and check my zero -- Which I would do, anyway.

It turns out the rifle shot to point of aim with no adjustments. Had it not, a few clicks on the turrets would have solved the problem.

 

[MCgunner]

I've killed a LOT of white tail deer over the years with good ol' Sierra Game Kings and lately, Nosler Ballistic Tips. Light skinned game and appropriate caliber, normal bullets are not a problem. Where I prefer my Barnes X loads now days is on heavier game with a lighter rifle. My .308 can step up a notch in game with a controlled expansion bullet. I shoot Barnes 140s on hogs and would use 'em if I used that rifle on elk. For deer, Nosler ballistic tips are accurate and deadly.

The way I look at the "magic bullets" is they alleviate the old sectional density formula for hunting. IOW, you can use a lighter controlled expansion bullet on game that you might have wanted a longer, heavier bullet on in the past. Now, I can use that 140 Barnes solid copper (and better SD anyway) on heavy game where once I might have wanted to step up to the .30-06 and shoot a 180 or 200 grain bullet of standard jacketed construction for the added sectional density.

I will not hesitate to use a controlled expansion bullet afield on game. The added cost is nothing, really. If I'm deer hunting with my .308 and know I might see a big hog, I hunt with the Barnes load. The Barnes load shoots just as accurate and 1/2" lower than my Nosler load. I sight the Nosler in for a 250 yard zero and the Barnes has a 200 yard zero with that sight in, very convenient. My 7 mag shoots similar when comparing my 150 grain Game King reload with factory Nosler 160 grain partition Federal Premium, another convenience added to the fact that I can buy more ammo if I'm on a trip and need it for the 7 by having the factory load option.

Oh, yeah, and if it won't shoot well with Sierra Game Kings, sell it and find another rifle. I find Nosler Ballistic Tips accurate, too.

I had one failure to expand in the past, did find the deer thankfully. It was a 117 grain .257" Hornady Interlock. I believe the failure was due to my use of it in my .257 Roberts at velocities just over 3000 fps. The bullet would probably do better in a .257 Weatherby at 400 fps faster. Anyway, I dropped back to the more accurate (3/4 moa) Sierra 100 grain Game King load I worked up for that rifle and lived happy ever after, for deer, and that's the heaviest game I've ever hunted with that old reliable rifle. She's put down an awful lot of deer over the years and all with Sierra bullets except for the one Hornady.