Are phone books good inicators of ballistics?

[countertop]

I go out once a year and run a series of telephone book tests. Here in DC, we get no less than 5 different phone books (2 yellow pages, 2 white pages, and the One Book) as well as a local phone book thats not much good to shoot. Anyway, I collect mine and my neighbors, (that gives me 10 phone books) and I open em and soak em for a couple of hours in a big cooler full of water. Then I take each one and duct tape i up (to hold it together) and place it back in the cooler overnight.

The next day me and a buddy hit the quarry (you need a buddy to carry the cooler with you). I try out an assortment of different handgun and rifle load. As impressive as the bullet expansion is, the damage to the phone books from a high caliber rifle is also neat.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I got curious about this, I collected up some phone books and tested my handloads. They will penetrate 27 phone books!!

(Of course, the Mountain View, Arkansas phone book is only an eighth of an inch thick.)

 

[halvey]

Phonebooks are reputed to give larger expansion than ballistic gelatin if I remember correctly.

Just the opposite. Pure water will give the best expansion (which is more like human tissue), than phone books.

I carry ball ammo anyway, so I'm looking more for penetration stats.

 

[dleong]

Just thinking out loud: since ballistic gelatin is not normally available to the general public, would Jello work as an appropriate substitute? Jello isn't all that expensive, so I would imagine that it would not cost too much to mix up a REALLY, REALLY large batch, pour them into milk jugs and let set. The Jello-filled jugs could then be lined up one behind the other to a "depth" appropriate to stop the projectile being tested.


DL

 

[Mute]

Depends......how often do you get attacked by misguided phone books.

 

[why_me]

Wet phone books are a mess

Didnt realise they would expand either.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Anything you use to test expansion and penetration is a mess. Ballistic Gelatin is something else to prepare -- you need to keep it in a freezer, you need a lot of it, and it splatters and runs. A Fackler box sprays water everywhere. Wet phone books produce soggy confetti.

But all in all, the Fackler box is most convenient -- plastic freezer bags are cheap, obtainable year round, and easy to dispose of once used.

 

[Red Tornado]

Vern,
Thanks for the tip on that Fackler box. I hadn't heard of them, but I'm always looking for something to throw together with scrap lumber, and shooting it's kind of pointless.

BTW, a Mosin 91/30 FMJ will go straight through; 2 - 4x4s, 17 2x4s, and the concrete block they were leaning against, with no expansion. ( I was a bit annoyed that I broke the block ) I have no idea how dry pine translates to human tissue, but think it would probably go through me, too.

Just adding my bit of irrelevance.
RT

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Penetration is everything in military ammo -- because in war softpoints and other expanding ammo is banned, and in combat, people tend to get behind things.

Fackler boxes are easy to make and maintain -- and if you're of an experimental frame of mind, you can learn a lot from them.

 

[why_me]

Wet Phone books = Expansion

Recovered bullet on left is wet phone book.
Recovered bullet on right is dry phone book
penny for comparison. Looks like the premium ammo works as advertised

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
---------------------------------
Wet Phone books = Expansion

Recovered bullet on left is wet phone book.
Recovered bullet on right is dry phone book
penny for comparison. Looks like the premium ammo works as advertised
----------------------------------

Yep, if you're ever attacked by a phone book, that's the ammo to use.

 

[MagnumCaliber357]

doesnt any one use phone books for finding peoples numbers anymore?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You can use phone books to find people's numbers? The things I learn on this forum!

 

[sm]

Well the Central AR phone book is thicker than Mr. Humphrey's - ours is about 2" thick.

I have taped these together and let sit in a tub. Then gone out and shot them.

Hey the print has become so small one cannot read the darn things anyway - trying to find a use for them.

Phone Books in MY testing did not give a good representation as compared to actual critters I have shot.

Therefore phonebooks are useful as booster seats for kiddies, paper drives, or tearing in half to impress the kiddies.

Honest - I shoot dirt. Yep I use the highly scentific "Shoot Mud Test" or "Wet Dirt Test".

In MY experience shooting a wet berm ( whatever) and comparing the same loading retrieved from a critter is very similiar.

I don't have to lug heavy phone books,or dispose of them afterwards.

A Carboard box filled with mud ( got shovel? ) works ...just toss the box in a trash bag , dispose of when done.

Then again I have shot glass, car doors, windshields, inside houses about to be torn down to see what does what...real stuff getting shot so I would know about backstops ,penetration, richochet...

I worry more about reliabilty of firearm, reliablity of ammo in firearm ( 200 rds min - don't forget mags too) of a given load before I carry it for defense - or other serious situations. Without these being taken care - Shot Placement is not going to happen. If the gun won't run, therefore I didn't place a shot...lot of good penetration is gonna do me.

 

[why_me]

Car doors are hard to find.

Got an outdoor range i could use. Dont knwo if they would allow me to bring a car door though. Got to shoot a watermelon 8)
Way fun. Kinda expensive though. And i never recovered the bullet

 

[griz]

Another vote for WET phone books. They have to be really wet, at least overnight but I usually let them soak for at least a day. Don't compress them first or the inside will stay dry, they will expand as they soak up water.

True nobody gets attacked by a book, but we're talking about comparisons here. It can useful to know that this 115 grain JHP will penetrate 50 percent more than that 115 grain JHP. Yes there can be that much difference.

I've tried jello, it starts melting if you don't keep it cold, and makes a goey mess no matter what. Water is also useful but you need more than you would think. Wet pack leaves it's mess in one piece, but it is heavy and also messy. If you use phone books instead of newsprint the glue in the binding also stinks a little. And all these methods result in "pretty" bullets. The mushrooms tend to be picture perfect, while bullets recovered from deer (my attempt at tying the results into the real world) tend to be more irregular and wadded up.

 

[Smoke]

I shot my phone book once to see what the fuss was about.

SHot it with a .22 first (start small and work to larger calibers)

First shot with a .22 went through and through. Didn't see any point in testing further. Maybe I needed to soak it longer.

Smoke

Total book is 109 pages, yellow and white. My apologies to the fine tilecrawlers at Smith & Carlson, P.C.

 

[Glock19Fan]

Smoke- Just to be safe, most handgun calibers require 12 inches or so of wet newspaper, twice the amount if you plan on using FMJ.

I remember while testing, I wanted to see what would happen to regular round nose .22LR bullets from my revolver. I dont remember the exact penitration but I was very suprised. It ended up punching through the newspaper (which I think was around 8 inches thick), through the tupperware container I had it in, and penitrated several inches into the ground, deep enough to me to give up after 2 inches becuase I didnt want to tear up the lawn (it was a relatives house).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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Well the Central AR phone book is thicker than Mr. Humphrey's - ours is about 2" thick.
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Yeah, you flatlanders live cheek by jowl, don't you? I hear you got as many as a hundred people to the square mile down there.

The advantage of testing in a medium is that you get to see both expansion and penetration. If the medium fairly represents flesh, you begin to see a reasonable representation of what happens when you shoot game.

 

[sm]

Yeah we have White Trash Trailers extending over the River...with a Submarine on the other side too..."ya'll ain't got that -in them there hills now has ya?"

I hate it here.

Seriously I shoot dirt, and yes it better represents IME the results of bullets removed from critters.

Friday night and I am in a bad area. I bet at least 100 cars in a parking lot down the road of a b-a-d "Nightspot". I get to count gunshots most likely - why not, I do most nights anyway.

We have a felon out and about, dropped his crutches outside the courthouse and ran...not been seen since. I just heard the news...I think I'm in minority being a good guy and all.

So enjoy them hills, mom is from up that way - one lane bridges, and ice cold springs...Sharp County ring a bell? Thought so.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
------------------------------
Yeah we have White Trash Trailers extending over the River...with a Submarine on the other side too..."ya'll ain't got that -in them there hills now has ya?"
--------------------------------

Y'all changed changed the name of Confederate Boulevard, because someone might be embarassed or offended by it. But you kept the name "Clinton Avenue!!"

We ain't got a submarine, but we WOULD have one -- if we could kill deer with it.

I spend a fair amount of time in Sharp County -- especially when I was running for Congress. One of these days, we're going to fix our economy so people can make a living here in the hills -- and then it will be heaven on earth.

 

[Chuck Jennings]

The mahattan phone directory is huge. Perhaps you could get some of those. Don't tell them why!!

 

[lbmii]

Well now, Vern Humphrey and SM we all seem to have fond memories of the same spot of the woods. My Uncle lives along the shore of Bull Shoals Lake sort of close to Cedar Creek, Missouri. I really like that area. I was offered jobs in both Branson and Fayetteville but they did not pay a thing.

Last weekend a female companion and I went down to Arkansas mostly just to eat at AQ Chicken and go to War Eagle Mill.


Now back to the thread:

I tested the Winchester Xpert steel shot 1 1/16 ounce #2 birdshot advertised at 1550 FPS.

It had a velocity average of 1500 FPS from my 20" barrel.

I shot it into a water soaked phone book from 7 yards. It created a large surface hole with a lot of stray shot holes all around it. The majority of major damage was in the first 1 1/2 inches of the phone book. At 3 inches, shot was starting to stop and by 4 1/2 inches the majority of shot had stopped. The wet phone book was about 5 1/2 inches thick and a small amount of shot did exit out the back.

The photo below does not show the damage very well.

Here is a dry phone book blasted with a 1 oz slug!

Exit Hole.

 

[sm]

I am still "here" for the time being doing the right thing, keeping tabs on mom. I seem to be the only sib that recalls having her as a mom...

I Like slugs

Now I am serious about the "Scientific Mud Test" . For ease of comparison take a .22 short and shoot a squirrel , or the next raccoon with a .38spl HP.

Now take the same loading, and shoot wet/ soaked phone books taped together. Wet Soaked Newpapers. To make the SMT easy, use a cardboard box, the ones reams of printer paper are really good. Fill with wet dirt, mud if you will. If you let the dirt dry in sun and are careful, you can dig real easy and see the "wound channel" if you will.

Now use the same distance and of course same gun and loading and compare the bullets from all test media and critter. Betcha the dirt is most representative.

Mr. Humphrey is damned and determined to have me get all riled up and drive North ...just to keep some sanity. Humm...I'm out of College until Jan

 

[Smoke]

I hear you got as many as a hundred people to the square mile down there

That's way over populated....time to move. 2 per sq. mile is getting a bit crowded in my book.

Smoke

Edited to add: I just checked the population for Bosque County, 13 people to the sq. mile. Guess it is time to move.

Art, you need a new neighbor?