Are shorter barrels capable of being more accurate than long ones?

[TTv2]

This is kind of a thrown together question cuz I have to leave soon, so please bear with me.

I bought a Ruger Charger recently and it has a 10 inch barrel. In talks with someone about .22 accuracy and barrel lengths, there's a guy at his range that exclusively shoots .22 LR in matches and using high end rifles with 24 inch barrels and has been for decades. The person I spoke to asked this .22 shooter at his range what affect that barrel length has on .22 accuracy and the reply was something to the effect that the longer barrel burns the powder more completely, but doesn't necessarily add to the velocity with subsonic standard velocity .22 ammo because it is in fact so long, but that complete powder burn makes it more accurate.

I can understand powder burns and consistency from shot to shot, but what I'm wondering about is how can such a long barrel and its lack or rigidity and harmonics be more accurate than a short, stiff barrel? Is it all in the twist rate? How is this possible when the velocity with standard velocity .22 ammo is basically the same from a 10 inch barrel to a 24 inch barrel?

 

[Nuclear]

Short answer, if the bullet leaves the barrel at the same place in the harmonics every time, it will be accurate if the bullet weight and amount of powder burned is consistent. He found a load that the bullet weight was consistent and with a long barrel, all or almost all of the powder burns, making the bullet weight, muzzle velocity and barrel harmonics consistent from shot to shot.

 

[wally]

The short answer is it depends

For iron sight shooters longer barrels usually means longer sight radius and thus better aiming so all else being equal means better shooting.

For optics, at distances where the velocity differences don't make a tremendous differences the shorter barrels can be "more accurate" because they are generally "stiffer" and thus should have more favorable "barrel harmonics".

My experience with 5.56 out to 300 yards the differences in barrel lengths from 16-24" is on the same order as the lot to lot variation in ammo, beyond 300 the longer barrels and resulting higher velocities reduce the time of flight enough to make a noticeable difference in drop and wind drift.

With .22LR another complication is unless you start with subsonic rifle ammo somewhere past 100 yards the bullet flies through the supersonic transition which generally really hurts accuracy. For example with my scoped 10/22 and the cheap bulk pack hitting a 3" steel plate at 100 yards is pretty much never miss unless I get really sloppy, but at 200 yards hitting a 10" plate is mostly luck as it goes subsonic along the way and the groups become patterns. I'm skeptical of claims of "better powder burning" with longer barrels and subsonic ammo -- unless he can prove it with lower standard deviations (actually lower standard error of the mean is the proper number to calculate) from the same lot of ammo with a long barrel vs a shorter barrel when chronographed

If he is winning matches with a long barrel why on earth would he switch? Equipment tends to evolve to what the regular match winners are using. If you look to bench rest shooters I think the trend is towards shorter and absurdly thick barrels but they are not carried or fired from the shoulder or at targets that can move.

 

[CraigC]

.....the reply was something to the effect that the longer barrel burns the powder more completely, but doesn't necessarily add to the velocity with subsonic standard velocity .22 ammo because it is in fact so long, but that complete powder burn makes it more accurate.

Pure, unadulterated nonsense, predicated on myth.. First and foremost, powder doesn't burn all the way down the barrel. The powder is burned completely in a very short span. In the case of .22LR, by the time the bullet leaves the case. In the case of revolvers, by the time it hits the forcing cone, in rifles, very shortly past the throat. What is left are rapidly expanding gases. Slower powders produce more expanding gases and those gases are able to accelerate the bullet faster in longer barrels and that's why longer barrels produce higher velocities with slower powders. It's expanding gases being released into the atmosphere that causes muzzle flash/blast, not burning powder, contrary to popular misconception. So the idea that there is any powder left at 24" is absurd in any cartridge, let alone the .22LR which reaches peak velocity in 12-14".

That said, generally speaking, barrel length alone has no bearing on raw accuracy potential. It affects shooter-related factors such as balance, sight radius, weight and felt recoil but that's it. When you get deep into benchrest, you will find that shooters have discovered that it pays to have the bullet exit the muzzle at a certain point in its rotation but those are shooters chasing every thousandth of an inch. That's as close as you'll get to barrel length having any bearing on accuracy and it has no bearing on what most of us are doing.

 

[ACES&8S]

This is kind of a thrown together question cuz I have to leave soon, so please bear with me.

I bought a Ruger Charger recently and it has a 10 inch barrel. In talks with someone about .22 accuracy and barrel lengths, there's a guy at his range that exclusively shoots .22 LR in matches and using high end rifles with 24 inch barrels and has been for decades. The person I spoke to asked this .22 shooter at his range what affect that barrel length has on .22 accuracy and the reply was something to the effect that the longer barrel burns the powder more completely, but doesn't necessarily add to the velocity with subsonic standard velocity .22 ammo because it is in fact so long, but that complete powder burn makes it more accurate.

I can understand powder burns and consistency from shot to shot, but what I'm wondering about is how can such a long barrel and its lack or rigidity and harmonics be more accurate than a short, stiff barrel? Is it all in the twist rate? How is this possible when the velocity with standard velocity .22 ammo is basically the same from a 10 inch barrel to a 24 inch barrel?

I agree with Nuclear one would immediately think longer barrels are -always- better but I beg
to differ in the sense that within reason a shorter barrel can achieve reasonable results within
reasonable distance, for instance I have in 223 caliber both a Rem Tactical in 20 inch barrel
& an Encore PISTOL with a 15 inch barrel & both can ring 4 inch steel every shot on a calm
wind day at 280 yards. All reloads of course!
Same for 7mm 08 Encore Pistol 15 inch barrel & Savage model 11 about 20 inches of barrel.
Then I have the Encore Pistol in 7mm 08 with a 9 & a half inch barrel that is great out to 100 yards but
will not hold up to the 15" barrel at 280 yards. Reloads here of course!

 

[Flechette]

Many people have had long guns that just could not become accurate with any loads, trigger jobs, etc. Then the gunsmith, often in desperation, cuts an inch or so off the barrel and voila' the gun is accurate with the shorter barrel.

The reason is harmonics. Some guns are unwittingly designed with barrels very close to the natural frequency of the barrel. The barrel oscillates significantly as the bullet travels down it. It is similar to how a bell changes dimensions slightly when it is rung. If the muzzle has a lot of motion, the result is a loss of accuracy because it is significant and often not the same shot-to-shot, even with the same ammunition.

Changing the length (shortening it) changes the frequency and makes the shorter barrel more accurate.

 

[spartandemon]

It’s like leverage. To have more leverage, the handle on your lever so to speak should be longer.
The longer the barrel the more the whip. Thicker diameter barrels, about .99 to 1 inch are great for reducing that whip and have more more consistency with harmonics assuming the barrel is free and everything else is in spec.
A shorter barrel is harder to leverage, thus is predisposed to having less whip and flex generally being, has more harmonic stability, and helps both the accuracy and precision.

Downside is losing MV for the shorter length barrel, which i suppose guides to a conversation about practical use and is besides the point.

 

[cdb1]

I’ve always heard shorter barrels in rifles have less droop so theoretically they are more accurate. I’ve always assumed this was the reason for the proliferation of 20” heavy barreled .308 bolt action rifles.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I’ve always heard shorter barrels in rifles have less droop so theoretically they are more accurate.

Droop and accuracy are not correlated. You may have very accurate, very long barrels. They may even impact at a lower spot than a shorter barrel, but impact more accurately.

 

[spartandemon]

Goes back to the accuracy vs precision debate on another thread and the why to distinguish the difference

 

[edwardware]

When you get deep into benchrest, you will find that shooters have discovered that it pays to have the bullet exit the muzzle at a certain point in its rotation. . .

Can you share a cite for that? I'm intrigued.

 

[CraigC]

I don't remember, it's been a while since I read about that. Might've been one of the benchrest forums but that sort of thing doesn't interest me.

 

[243winxb]

Many people have had long guns that just could not become accurate with any loads, trigger jobs, etc. Then the gunsmith, often in desperation, cuts an inch or so off the barrel and voila' the gun is accurate with the shorter barrel.

22 LR

The cut is made at the smallest groove diameter. This improves the accurcy.

Barrels should be air gauged to find the tight section of the barrel, then make the cut and crown it.

 

[Varminterror]

The powder is GASIFIED in the first few inches of the barrel, but it is not all burned. You would never see muzzle flash if it were BURNED in the first few inches. This is a common confusion.

To the OP’s question, yes, it is possible for short barrels to be more accurate than long ones. Many reasons for it, many reasons against it - all depends upon your specific need. If the muzzle is outside of the node, you’ll never shoot well, if it’s in the node, it’s probably going to shoot well. Barrel length is a means to get a more aerodynamic, longer, heavier bullet up to a necessary speed for stabilization.

Benchrest shooters tend to want two rolls in the barrel, it’s somewhat seen as voodoo, but enough guys have had luck with it, it’s fairly well adopted.

 

[Art Eatman]

Worth the read:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

Conclusions of some 0.1 MOA guys from 100-yard trials inside a warehouse.

 

[old heeler]

This is new record 5 shot group @ 600 yds

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/04/amazing-accuracy-sauter-shoots-0-282-group-at-600-yards/

 

[cdb1]

The powder is GASIFIED in the first few inches of the barrel, but it is not all burned. You would never see muzzle flash if it were BURNED in the first few inches.

That makes total sense.

 

[243winxb]

22LR which reaches peak velocity in 12-14".

And will loose velocity because of friction on the bullet, when using very long barrels.

 

[cdb1]

Droop and accuracy are not correlated. You may have very accurate, very long barrels. They may even impact at a lower spot than a shorter barrel, but impact more accurately.

I’m not saying you are wrong because I haven’t made up my mind but I don’t yet know that you are right.

 

[The Earl o Sammich]

There was an article a hundred years ago in Precision Shooting about finding the right combination for bullet weight, muzzle velocity, barrel harmonics, ....all based on caliber. For a .308 they came to the conclusion the optimal barrel length was 21 and a half inches for 168 grain Sierras in a 1.200 inch bull barrel. They had a one holer rifle at 300 yards. They were shooting in an abandon factory/warehouse.

Anything else is a whole nother three weeks of study....

 

[spartandemon]

I’m not saying you are wrong because I haven’t made up my mind but I don’t yet know that you are right.

Any barrel contact, other than its being screwed into a totally stress free bedded receiver will affect harmonics differently from what harmonics would be if the barrel were truly fully free floated. The actual droop wouldn’t be an issue. Plenty of bench guys use a 30” 1.25 dia barrel.

Droop is a more of an issue for air guns that break to engage the spring.

Proably the exception is the with ar styled long hbars and a bad barrel extension to receiver fit. However it’s not so much the droop as much as the slop.

 

[TTv2]

the .22LR which reaches peak velocity in 12-14".

Maybe for hi velocity, but standard velocity I keep seeing 10 inches being where it essentially hits max as I saw an article on the Ruger Charger and the velocity loss between the Charger an a stock 18.5 inch 10/22 was 3%, which is basically nothing.

Hyper velocity like Stinger and Velocitor seem to hit peak over 18 inches.

 

[CraigC]

Correct.

 

[imashooter]

"Are shorter barrels capable of being more accurate than long ones?" Yes.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Longer sight radius means more precision in aiming.