Are the "advantages" of DAO revolvers based upon fallacies?

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I have posed this topic as a question because it symbolizes that I still have an open mind about the topic, but the question needed to be asked.

When I go revolver shopping, I see DAO revolvers all of the time, SW 442/642, 640s, Ruger SP-101's with chopped hammers, Tauri of various nomenclature, and larger snubs customized with docked hammer spurs from time to time.

Then I ask myself the question, is the DAO revolver a form of snake oil? After all, one is voluntarily crippling one of the two trigger modes of the normal double action revolver. So it begs the question of what is gained compared to what is given up.

Some DAO revolvers out there, like CAI imported Ruger GP-100s or NYPD Rugers, appear to be DAO due to a police bureaucracy–can’t have our boys in uniform hammering back on a suspect now can we? I view that as the “chicken manure” reason for DAO revolvers in that the primary intention is the avoidance of civil liability. This aspect is not what I intend to discuss.

Other DAO revolvers, most famously the Centennial J-Frames and their Taurus quasi-clones, are purpose built for external hammer elimination from scratch. These, for lack of a better term, I call “concealment DAO,” the idea being that the hammer is an impediment to really deep concealment.

Some people also tout the hammerless system as capable of being “pocket-fired” while in a coat or a vest. I view this as a dubious advantage if it is not in fact an error in judgement to think that pocket firing a weapon at all is a good idea. First of all, pocket firing is like cowboy point shooting, but worse, because a natural pointing angle is far from assured, the firing position using most coats or vests is going to be unnatural, your hollow point might become pre-clogged or prematurely expand--degrading its terminal effectiveness, and finally if the revolver is not removed from the pocket, you have effectively half-hand-cuffed yourself if the bad guy or an accomplice bowls you over or something. All in all, I’d rather have my piece out before firing than rely on the crappy shooting characteristics afforded by remaining totally discreet and surprising via lighting off my revolver in my pocket.

So maybe the fire in the hole aspect is an overblown Hollywood fantasy? Then the hammerless certainly makes more sense as a “concealment DAO” in that it can’t help but outperform fully exposed hammer snubbies and even shrouded traditionally operating revolvers in that role--does it not? Again, I wonder. Perhaps for naked pocket carry, the concealment DAO is better, but I tend to think that again that advantage is overblown and at the cost of the option of going to SA if required.

Some snubbies, like the S&W Bodyguard style, are permanently shrouded. Many snubbies are not shrouded at all but can be with some frame modification. As far as the hammer printing through a pocket, that can be mitigated by a good pocket holster. As far as presentation is concerned, technique can prevent snagging. The modus operandi of the pocket concealed revolver is that one can be discreetly gripping it as things are getting tactically dicey, but not cross the line into brandishing until the last possible moment if desired. What is to prevent one from shrouding the exposed hammer of just such a snub with one’s thumb? My thumb doesn’t snag when presenting my Det. Special so I tend to think that snagging upon presentation is also an overblown problem.

Now I come to the cons of DAO. It is limiting one’s choices for the sake of dubious convenience. The flip side of the “I can fire from my pocket” argument, is the traditional hammered snubbie user’s argument, that, “I can hammer back for a precision shot if required.” I have yet to meet a revolver shooter who thinks a shot at any distance that would reasonably be made using the sights would be easier to execute in DA as opposed to SA if given the choice. Does that mean that hammering back to SA while drawing is a great idea? No, not necessarily, though people are encountered who do just that. What I am talking about is the scenario where one might be called upon to do something that requires accuracy, such as hit a person holding a human shield or who is crouching and reloading behind cover, but still partially exposed to your shot if you can make it. Those two scenarios are no more unlikely than having to shoot someone from the inside of one’s pocket, but a DAO would be a decided disadvantage on such a shot, just as surely as a traditionally spurred hammer would be disadvantaged firing from one’s pocket.

Many people think a snub is of limited accuracy, but it just isn't so. It's two real ballistic limitations are its short sight radius and how much trigger control one has. A properly calibrated laser grip can somewhat mitigate problem one, but only going to SA can really mitigate problem two.

Given that I am of the mind that I would always present before I fired any snubbie, I had no problem passing up the DAO ones I encountered in the case at my dealer’s place or on the tables on the gun show. If I ever get a snubbie smaller than my Detective Special, I am thinking I will be contrarian and go for a Bodyguard. I could still be persuaded about DAO however, because maybe I am missing something?
 
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I think each person has to find the answers that work for them. The Centennial model Smiths work for me through empirical testing. I don't know why people cut the spurs off of belt or holster revolvers but a pocket with concealed hammer is definitely a good thing. YMMV
 
I think a DAO configuration really can help to ease the draw from concealment. I can pull a "hammerless" 642 from a pocket holster more quickly and easily than I can pull my SP101, which has an open hammer. The SP101 occasionally snags on presentation from the pocket; the hammer gets in the way.

It is true that if you're touching the revolver prior to presentation (the scenario where you have your hand in your pocket and you get some warning before a suspicious encounter turns lethal) you can hold the hammer out of the way with your thumb and ease the draw. Still, it means one more little thing to watch out for.

But when one brings up the "Bodyguard" snubby configuration found in the S&W 638 (shrouded hammer, still cockable with the thumb) and asks why that isn't more popular -- it's a fair question. It would seem to combine the strengths of the hammerless Centennial revolver (642) and the traditional open-hammer revolver (637).

Frankly, I suspect people just find the Bodyguard configuration kind of ugly compared to the other two. Perhaps a frivolous reason for rejecting a good defense gun, but there you go.
 
Frankly, I suspect people just find the Bodyguard configuration kind of ugly compared to the other two. Perhaps a frivolous reason for rejecting a good defense gun, but there you go.

I do find the Bodyguard configuration less attractive than a Centennial configuration. That did not, however, stop me from buying both a Taurus 651 (Bodyguard style) and a Taurus 650 (Centennial style). I figure that I can ponder the differences at my leisure. :)
 
I personally find both the Bodyguard and Centenial style revolvers to be practically attractive, meaning beauty in function, for having that big hook taken off that catches on clothing during a draw from concealment.

The DAO is a plus for management/supervisors concerned about officers holding a cocked weapon in a stressful situation. Same reason most PD's don't allow Condition One carry.

It is also a plus for those who analyze every action in life to determine what angle a plaintiff's attorney will take in the after-shooting lawsuit. Can't accuse you of cocking the hammer and having a negligent discharge if the hammer can't cock. (This angle would be useful for a P.I. lawyer, as it would allow him to argue negligence in a shooting instead of an intentional act. Negligence will keep the insurance company on the hook, and thus keep more cash available for a settlement or judgment.)
 
These hammer v. hammerless threads always seem to end in a Bodyguard lovers circle j -- um , you know. :uhoh:
 
Well, that certainly wasn't my intention -- my carry-gun-to-be is a 642, and I do think the Bodyguard style is funny lookin'.

But when you stop and reflect on it, it has some distinct advantages.
 
A PI lawyer could certainly argue ND with a DAO wielder because a lack of SA ability wouldn't really dent the "Did it just go off?" claptrap.

However, I would be immune to any such line of attack. "Yes counselor, I fully intended to shoot the dead robber you represent. His dying was incidental to his committing a crime against me and mine."
 
Speaking from the POV of an instructor, I can see one more advantage of a DAO revolver.

It forces the user to practice shooting DAO.

Most people who are shooting revolvers at the range really want to reach up there and cock that hammer back first.

You can shoot more accurately with less effort that way. But if you intend to have a revolver for serious sitatuions, shooting it single-action is a bad thing.

Even I have this temptation. It's so easy to do.

With a DAO, you are forced to shoot DAO, which is of course how you would shoot if if you ever shot it "for real."

hillbilly
 
DOA also has a good legal point. In a civil case of a shooting, no more criminal you were justified, the attorney can argue the gun ACCIDENTLY went off.I have read of this happening.


Kevin
 
Not only is the 649 a little tricky to cock in a hurry, the one I've carried has a single action factory trigger pull that is right around 1.75# and so crisp it seems even lighter. Good for target work I suppose, but not too good under stress.

OTOH, I love my 442. It has a nice clean smooth pull on it. Funny thing, I can shoot it better than almost all my other guns - out to 20-25 yards anyway. It just fits me I suppose.

John
 
Of course the having to practice DAO ensures that many people who own them will shoot them little, if at all.

I don't have a DAO revolver, but I shoot about 80/20 DA to SA because it is good for me to know the default action really well and the single action well enough to use it.

I'd hate to think I need to use the action of my handgun as a built in crutch to practice the right mix of shooting.
 
I started off with a 637 and ended up with a 642. There were a few reasons:

The draw has one less thing to go wrong. While I'm sure that I would calmly place my thumb if I ever had to haul the it out of the pocket like my life depended on it, it's something I don't have to worry about it with the 642. This was my primary reason for switching.

The draw is marginally faster. With the 637 I would keep my thumb over the hammer to ensure no snags. That made for a slower draw, both pulling it out of my pocket and acquiring a firing grip. With the 642 I can get a firing grip while it's still entirely in my pocket and fire as soon as I get the gun horizontal.

If I have the luxury of time and need for accuracy I can stage the trigger. While it's not as accurate as a real SA shot, the difference for me with a 1 7/8 barrel is minimal. More relevant is that I have a tough time envisioning likely scenarios where I have the time, need the accuracy, and still would be justified in taking the shot.

Echoing hillbilly's comment, I have to practice correctly. SA shooting is more fun. Everybody likes to be accurate and everybody likes a nice trigger. My hat's off to you for confining SA to 20% of your shooting. I was more like 50/50.

Lastly, it's one less place for lint to collect.

When everything went right the 637 was practically as fast. When it didn't...
 
If you consider the other passtimes involving shooting handguns, ie, competitive shooting, you'll find a definite advantage to DAO shooting... developing speed with accuracy. That is the main reason that I shoot all of my DA-capable DA most of the time. One doesn't find many SA shooters competitively outside of CAS events. Add this to the fact that in a high-stress moment where your life, and that of a suspected perpetrator, lay in the balance, and you'll appreciate the one less step to go through to possibly fiend off an attack.

The most common failing for DA fire, if there is one, is in ultimate accuracy. If we are discussing a snubnose 'hammerless', a la my 2.5" 296 .44 Special hammerless 5-shot, kind of a 642 on steroids, hitting the chest of a BG target at 12-15yd is sufficient. I can, however, hit a 16" steel plate at 100yd two or more times out of five with my usual 200gr Gold Dots. That took loads of practice... and a larger grip (I replaced the OEM boot grips with the usual M10/65 Uncle Mike's Combats - enclosing that backstrap.). Obviously, that shooting is DAO - but I can do the same with my 2" 10 - DA as well. Practice!

Still, it is an individual choice. Practice!

Stainz

PS My favorite revolver to 'shock' folks with... my tricked trigger 1895 Nagant revolver. I have to continuously remind folks it is really a DA... it's 'good' trigger is still 20+ lb in SA or DA.
 
The modern double action revolver was meant to be fired in that mode (double action!) at all times. The ability to cock the hammer for single action fire is convenient - sometimes - for zeroing adjustable sights, etc. But the revolver itself should always be fired double action.

I use several S&Ws for competition, home defense and CCW. All of them are DAO or have been modifed by having their hammer spurs removed.

As my brother is wont to point out to his CCW classes, "That's the way God intended them to be fired!" :D
 
The biggest advantage of a DAO revolver is that it absolutely eliminates the need to uncock a revolver after a very stressful situation.
 
I carry/prefer a centennial J-frame for three reasons, ease of concealment, reliability, and the ability to produce/draw it quickly. The centennial type snub excels in all of those areas.

Both scenearios of shooting from the pocket or having to hit someone behind a human shield, are as has been stated extremely unlikely, and frankly didn't factor in my selection as a carry piece.


nero
 
Speaking from the POV of an instructor, I can see one more advantage of a DAO revolver.

It forces the user to practice shooting DAO.

That is THE advantage of a DAO. Police departments liked them for that reason, and the munincipal insurance companies liked them because they were less likely to be discharged accidentally than a cocked gun. That's the reason for the "New York Trigger" on the Glock.

IF you choose to carry in a pocket, a bobbed or shrouded hammer is indicated. But there are better ways to carry.
 
I am mainly a target shooter & rarely shoot SA. For me shooting DA is more accurate. So obviously I disagree with some of your statements.

I bought a 640-1 a couple months ago & it has become my favorite small handgun. The recoil is a bit stout but I enjoy putting 100 rounds of .357 mag downrange with it.
 
I think your post ignores the single biggest reason to make/carry a DAO revovler. THe hammer spur itself is a huge snag point on the weapon. Its a big hook just waiting to grab onto the edge of your pocket or clothing when your trying to draw it. I had a da/sa revolver and didnt think anything of it untill i tried to draw it from a pocket with speed, yeah that changed my mind real fast. I have since learned how to draw such a weapon, but with nice hamerless guns it really isnt a necessary skill. Double action shooting sacrifices very litte (if any) accuracy and the opportunity to cock the hammer is unlikely to present itself if you need the gun fast.
 
For concealment and ease of drawing, I do not want a hammer on the revolver I'm carrying. The 642 is excellent for me, the absolute best handgun I've ever found for ccw.

And to another comment, 2 of my 3 revolvers are 642s, but I always practice with my model 19 in double action. I never use single action.
 
it is hard to believe that you've never met anyone who found it easier to shoot a wheelgun more accurately in DA than SA.

when i started in LE we were issued wheelguns with which we completed qualification courses which included 24 rounds from the 50 yardline. (this included weak hand barricade) we shot the standard PPC course on the B27 target and were allowed to go SA from the 50 yardline. i used to be happy to keep all my rounds inside the 8-ring.

then i started paying attention to the pistol team shooters who were keeping all their shots inside the 10-ring, with most of them inside the X-ring, from 50 yards. what i learned was that they were all shooting DA throughout the course of fire.

when i got involved in PPC, i saw some great shooters consistent "clean" the 50 yard stage while shooting DA. it gives a consistant trigger stroke and works to stop anticipating the trigger break. also remember that in the bianchi cup (which was certainly an accuraccy match) the wheelgunners all shoot DAO.

once you learn how to do it properly and practice what you've learned, you'll fine that shooting a wheelgun DA is as accurate, if more more so, than SA.
 
I have yet to meet a revolver shooter who thinks a shot at any distance that would reasonably be made using the sights would be easier to execute in DA as opposed to SA if given the choice.

You gotta get out more!!

I'm almost exclusively a target shooter, so accuracy is a priority for me. Other than initially sighting in a new gun, just to get it on paper, virtually all my shooting is done DA. Final sight adjustments are made shooting DA.

Joe
 
It's funny...this thread started life as a "DAO" thread, and seems to have become a Bodyguard vs. Centennial thread. Why see it that way? Pick the one you like. Pick one of each. I plan to. :D
 
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