Are there any bad ARs out there?
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USAF_Vet
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Man, I don't even want to know what some people think of my AR.
Decent AR's can be bought in the $750 to $850 dollar range that will provide you with just as good service and parts.
Use your own judgement as to what to spend. If you want a top tier AR look at the Noveske or Daniel Defence lines of rifles. Yes, they will cost a little more but are worth it.
Jim
Use your own judgement as to what to spend. If you want a top tier AR look at the Noveske or Daniel Defence lines of rifles. Yes, they will cost a little more but are worth it.
Jim
Google "colt 6920 problems" and you will find about a million threads about issues with what you think is God's gift to the AR world. Everything breaks, and there are lemons on the market from every manufacturer. Stick with the ones mentioned above and you will be fine. Most of these manufacturers have put out stuff that has been torture tested by some LE agency and adopted. Don't worry about reliability as much as features for the price.
BTW, "Colt 6920" is actually a word and a number.
BTW, "Colt 6920" is actually a word and a number.
HorseSoldier
Member
This is a good point. I've known a lot of guys using home built ARs they did themselves or got from somebody they know who built them. Most of the time I don't know of any issues, but the most jacked up ARs I've ever seen were home built by somebody who either didn't know what they were doing or cut corners.
Cosmoline
Member
I think that AR-15 owners are a bit spoiled. There do seem to be some disreputable outfits around, but the main ones all produce quality products from what I've seen. Whether or not your intended use is going to call for mil spec levels of QC is really the question. If it is, then go with the top tier. Otherwise DPMS and similar mid-level outfits seem fine.
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Meh, it's a tough market. You are more likely to get ripped off with over-priced "Tacticool" companies, selling you a rifle that is more for war action.
So, what is your rifle's purpose and what is your budget range? (Those are better questions.)
So, what is your rifle's purpose and what is your budget range? (Those are better questions.)
I wouldn't call it ripped off as much as I would call it overpaying for "features" that you don't need and will never use. Paying extra for a full quad rail when at most you need 1-2 sections of rail 2" long at the 3 and 6 o'clock for a light and forward grip is a perfect example. Customizable forearms that allow you to add only the rail sections that you need are much lighter, more convenient and less expensive. Likewise back-up irons can get really pricey and 99% of shooters have no use for them.
heavydluxe
Member
I own one centerfire rifle: An AR15 I built in stages, with eager assistance from my son.
I wound up purchasing everything through Palmetto State Armory, beginning with the lower, following with the parts kits, some upgrades, and finally a complete upper (I chicken out there). In my admittedly limited experience, their mil-spec parts are just that and compare favorably to the parts I've seen in a number of other folks ARs I've come across at the range. Their prices, particularly if you're willing to be patient and snipe at sales, seem *very* competitive.
So far, the rifle functions VERY well. It has not malfunctioned with anything run through (including cheap bulk ammo like Tula and Wolf). And the accuracy has been excellent with more appropriate ammunition.
The only thing I've been disappointed in was the carry handle sights that I added on since I couldn't afford an optic when the upper was purchased. The big adjustment dial, under the rear peep, is very sticky in a couple positions.
Aside from that, I would speak very highly of them - including the interactions I've had with their customer service.
All that offered to make this point: If you go with a generally reputable supplier (most of whom have been discussed here), I don't think you'll have a problem. But, YMMV.
I wound up purchasing everything through Palmetto State Armory, beginning with the lower, following with the parts kits, some upgrades, and finally a complete upper (I chicken out there). In my admittedly limited experience, their mil-spec parts are just that and compare favorably to the parts I've seen in a number of other folks ARs I've come across at the range. Their prices, particularly if you're willing to be patient and snipe at sales, seem *very* competitive.
So far, the rifle functions VERY well. It has not malfunctioned with anything run through (including cheap bulk ammo like Tula and Wolf). And the accuracy has been excellent with more appropriate ammunition.
The only thing I've been disappointed in was the carry handle sights that I added on since I couldn't afford an optic when the upper was purchased. The big adjustment dial, under the rear peep, is very sticky in a couple positions.
Aside from that, I would speak very highly of them - including the interactions I've had with their customer service.
All that offered to make this point: If you go with a generally reputable supplier (most of whom have been discussed here), I don't think you'll have a problem. But, YMMV.
bowserb
Member
Google "Toyota Corolla problems", "Apple computer problems", "Acme Brick problems". If it sells in significant numbers, there will be a bunch of people with problems.
I have a Wyndham Weaponry HBC model AR. The HBC is for heavy barrel, to stand up under continuous fire and not warp. Wyndham is a company started a couple years ago. It is in the Wyndham, Maine plant where Bushmasters were made until the Greedom Group moved production to Remington in New York. The founder of Wyndham is the guy who rescued Bushmaster from bankruptcy in the 1970's. He built it into a good name, then sold to Greedom Group with a five year lease on the plant and a five year non-compete for himself. When the lease was about up, Greedom announced they were moving and any employees who wanted to move to New York were welcome to apply for jobs at the Remington plant.
The lease ran out, the owner of the plant and former owner of Bushmaster decided to start up again. He had a trained workforce from which to choose the best new employees, and he had the desire (so they say) to reverse the corner cutting that Greedom Group had phased in over the last five years. It's a great story. The reviews I've read about the rifles are excellent. The rifle has a lifetime warranty, although I've had no opportunity to test it. My experience with the Wyndham HBC is no problems of any kind in the last year. The price was around $300 less than the Colt 6920. I can think of nothing bad about this rifle.
That said, I suggest that you buy a Colt. Three years from now, the $300 will have been forgotten, but you'll still have a Colt. Colt is the original manufacturer of the AR15/M16/M4 rifles. The gun has 50 years of testing behind it and has been slowly upgraded by actual combat users experience (I was one of them in 1967-68) and is the culmination of that 50 years of development and evolution. Even though I have nothing bad to say about the Wyndham, I still wish I had bought a Colt, and unless Comrade Obama shuts us down, I probably will in the next couple years.
Absolutely
And then you have to play the game where you figure out where the fault lies for the problem
Yes, it shows they do have some of the very same problems as the others, even though they are produced in lower numbers. Furthermore, there is nothing to say a Colt will run better than any of the others in the same conditions. As I said in another thread, all of the big names have submitted models for torture testing during endurance trials by various LE agencies. RRA beat out everyone else to win the DEA contract. Bushmaster supplies numerous state agencies, including TX DPS, who beat up numerous ARs during testing, only to pick BM. These stories go on and on. The simple fact is that the main differences between the Colt and others are in the QC testing before leaving the company for sale. Mil-spec is great, but does not mean it is the minimum requirement for something to work in combat conditions. This is pretty much proven by LE torture testing. This is pretty much proven by countless examples of different brands that make it through fast-paced carbine courses. I'm willing to bet that they would work as well as the Colts and FNs in the deserts of the Middle East as well.
Colt is a name, just like any other. Colts are good rifles, no question. Colts, however, are plagued with the same problems as the others out there, even with the extra QC measures. Because other mfg's rifles ar not always individually tested and magnafluxed, some feel they are of lesser quality. This is a very simplistic way to look at things, and anyone who uses their brain can see the fault in it. For one, just because other companies batch test their parts, does not mean they would fail if individually tested; it just means they weren't each checked. So far, there have not been any widespread complaints or problems from this. (Ever hear of a trend of broken carriers, bolts, or blown barrels? Of course not!) Bushmaster follows this method, and has won many a contract to produce rifles for actual use by people who use them for a living. I'm sure Windham now does the same. Where we see more issues is with assembly, something not foreign to Colt either.
Just think about things as a whole before saying that Colt is somehow superior. It's just funny when someone says something like "they use CMV steel barrels," or "they do MPI testing" without even knowing what that really means, and the implications of doing it or not. Hell, we have a guy posting how he has an awesome, flawless $800 Windham rifle, but feels he should have bought a Colt for $300 more instead without reason. Does that follow any logic, or make any sense? Of course not!
Colt is a name, just like any other. Colts are good rifles, no question. Colts, however, are plagued with the same problems as the others out there, even with the extra QC measures. Because other mfg's rifles ar not always individually tested and magnafluxed, some feel they are of lesser quality. This is a very simplistic way to look at things, and anyone who uses their brain can see the fault in it. For one, just because other companies batch test their parts, does not mean they would fail if individually tested; it just means they weren't each checked. So far, there have not been any widespread complaints or problems from this. (Ever hear of a trend of broken carriers, bolts, or blown barrels? Of course not!) Bushmaster follows this method, and has won many a contract to produce rifles for actual use by people who use them for a living. I'm sure Windham now does the same. Where we see more issues is with assembly, something not foreign to Colt either.
Just think about things as a whole before saying that Colt is somehow superior. It's just funny when someone says something like "they use CMV steel barrels," or "they do MPI testing" without even knowing what that really means, and the implications of doing it or not. Hell, we have a guy posting how he has an awesome, flawless $800 Windham rifle, but feels he should have bought a Colt for $300 more instead without reason. Does that follow any logic, or make any sense? Of course not!
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MachIVshooter
Member
AR does stand for ArmaLite, but do remember that it is also a current company (4th iteration). When referring to the AR generically, just say AR. Otherwise, most will think you're speaking specifically of an ArmaLite AR (M-15 is their designation)
Rail Driver
Member
Pretty sure he asked here because dozens, if not hundreds of members here have already done that reading and searching, and just as many have had actual hands on experience with the various makes and models.
I notice that any time anybody ever asks a question on this site, at least one person chimes in with a snide comment about the search function. If you don't want to help or don't have anything useful to add to the conversation, why bother replying at all?
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Back on topic, I've had bad luck with DPMS LPKs - I've broken no less than 4 DPMS hammer pins (3 came in guns I bought or traded for, one was a replacement part I purchased later). I'll also second the tight chambers on Olympic Arms guns.
I've had a fantastic experience with my Spike's AR.
You can't go wrong with a Colt or one of the other top shelf names.
I have had little personal experience with Del-Ton, but my next door neighbor has one he loves but always seems to have problems with.
Because when I post my experiences, the guys with an inferiority complex over their rifle's brands get upset.
Particularly the DPMS guys.
I don't have the "care" to get into it over and over again. Let people do their own research, there is a crap ton here, with new threads every 6 hours or so.
HorseSoldier
Member
Or if they're British or Irish they'll probably think you're talking about an AR-18.
Skylerbone
Member
I've yet to lose sleep over others' pedestrian evaluations of my mental state. Don't cry in my beer or long to spread my ignorance and poor choices with others. I fully realize mine are the rare exception that function, that I bought to be tacticool and that I haven't finished running my first box of Tula through to actually test function.
From my Rock River to my Model 700, M&Ps to Colt 1911s, Model 70 to Marlin 25N and even my trusty 1100, my Knight muzzleloader, my revolvers, my S&Ws, Kahr and 10/22, the Beretta and all the others as well: every firearm I own is a POS. How do I know? Someone on the Internet told me so.
I'm not a bit shy about expressing my dissatisfaction with firearms and gear that does not perform regardless of brand. I don't offer up advice in hope of seeing other folks waste money and fail. I don't claim all suggestions are useful but most are based on my experience rather than an armchair psychologist's blanket diagnosis.
FWIW, my RRA has yet to experience a failure of any kind. I know...because I don't push it as hard as the Noveske crowd.
From my Rock River to my Model 700, M&Ps to Colt 1911s, Model 70 to Marlin 25N and even my trusty 1100, my Knight muzzleloader, my revolvers, my S&Ws, Kahr and 10/22, the Beretta and all the others as well: every firearm I own is a POS. How do I know? Someone on the Internet told me so.
I'm not a bit shy about expressing my dissatisfaction with firearms and gear that does not perform regardless of brand. I don't offer up advice in hope of seeing other folks waste money and fail. I don't claim all suggestions are useful but most are based on my experience rather than an armchair psychologist's blanket diagnosis.
FWIW, my RRA has yet to experience a failure of any kind. I know...because I don't push it as hard as the Noveske crowd.
Ignition Override
Member
nathan:
A friend has the basic Colt AR, about twenty years old and in almost mint condition. He seldom uses it.
I had hoped that he has a "Green Box" AR
, but that's not the case.
Having never used another AR, my only comment was that the trigger feels pretty tight, but I've read that some AR trigger groups can be modified.
Watching people zap feral pigs from helicopters in TX (now they can be chartered) on Youtube increases my curiosity about the AR-15.
"Freedom.av.com": pilot Matt Ashcraft
, shooter Vance Ballew with his Rock River AR, are my favorite crew among these
combat helicopter missions, and were near the Brazos River.
A friend has the basic Colt AR, about twenty years old and in almost mint condition. He seldom uses it.
I had hoped that he has a "Green Box" AR
, but that's not the case.Having never used another AR, my only comment was that the trigger feels pretty tight, but I've read that some AR trigger groups can be modified.
Watching people zap feral pigs from helicopters in TX (now they can be chartered) on Youtube increases my curiosity about the AR-15.
"Freedom.av.com": pilot Matt Ashcraft
, shooter Vance Ballew with his Rock River AR, are my favorite crew among these combat helicopter missions, and were near the Brazos River.
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Quentin
Member
Quite a few bad ARs have been mentioned already so I think it's better now to recommend the really great ones - such as BCM, Daniel Defense and PSA (I have one of each). I don't have a Colt but would confidently add it to a "best AR" list.
I also have an ArmaLite which is a decent AR but not as good as the four I mentioned. I suspect most sub-$1000 ARs you'll encounter in the LGS also fall in this "Tier 2" or "Tier 3" grouping. Any thing less would be in the lowest category like Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne. I would also avoid any polymer receivered AR such as the Bushmaster Carbon 15.
Almost no doubt Noveske, LMT, KAC and a few others also deserve top billing but I don't have experience with them firsthand.
I also have an ArmaLite which is a decent AR but not as good as the four I mentioned. I suspect most sub-$1000 ARs you'll encounter in the LGS also fall in this "Tier 2" or "Tier 3" grouping. Any thing less would be in the lowest category like Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne. I would also avoid any polymer receivered AR such as the Bushmaster Carbon 15.
Almost no doubt Noveske, LMT, KAC and a few others also deserve top billing but I don't have experience with them firsthand.
Welding Rod
Member
The only AR I ever saw that had a major issue that was not related to ammo or magazines was a Bushmaster. It was bought new maybe 4 or 5 years ago (not by me).
It would feed the rounds too low to allow them to enter the chamber. The owner tried several magazines, then I let him try a few of mine (NHMTG among others). No dice. I tried it as well to make sure it wasn't operator error. It wasn't. It was certifiably FUBAR in the manufacturing process. The magazines would latch in place, but they wouldn't sit high enough in the lower reciever. It went home from its first time out without firing a single shot.
I have owned plenty of RRAs and like them alot in 223 Wylde / 556. Colt's are good too. BCM makes good stuff. I wasn't impressed at all with the two 450 Bushmasters I bought, and later sold. I only comment on stuff I actually have owned so I can't say about any others.
I will add that the only 223/556 malfs not related to bad magazines that I have encountered were with my BCM uppers (20") Evidently they aren't fond of softer shooting loads - Sellior & Bellot 223 specifically. The RRAs have all ate everything I have tried.
Edit: I also owned a CMMG upper that had significant issues. To their credit CMMG promptly made it right, however after seeing what could get out of their shop, I wouldn't risk buying another when there are other options.
It would feed the rounds too low to allow them to enter the chamber. The owner tried several magazines, then I let him try a few of mine (NHMTG among others). No dice. I tried it as well to make sure it wasn't operator error. It wasn't. It was certifiably FUBAR in the manufacturing process. The magazines would latch in place, but they wouldn't sit high enough in the lower reciever. It went home from its first time out without firing a single shot.
I have owned plenty of RRAs and like them alot in 223 Wylde / 556. Colt's are good too. BCM makes good stuff. I wasn't impressed at all with the two 450 Bushmasters I bought, and later sold. I only comment on stuff I actually have owned so I can't say about any others.
I will add that the only 223/556 malfs not related to bad magazines that I have encountered were with my BCM uppers (20") Evidently they aren't fond of softer shooting loads - Sellior & Bellot 223 specifically. The RRAs have all ate everything I have tried.
Edit: I also owned a CMMG upper that had significant issues. To their credit CMMG promptly made it right, however after seeing what could get out of their shop, I wouldn't risk buying another when there are other options.
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Kyle M.
Member
I've owned a colt 6920, armalite national match, dpms ap4, olympic, m4 style and 3 bushmasters. The busmaster varminter and dpms ap4 have been the best of the bunch ymmv.
Own or have owned Delton, CMMG, Bushmaster, Model 1, and have shot many others for various purposes messing about. If the price was right I would buy any of them again if I needed or wanted an AR. Quality control for most is quite good but as others have said you can get a bad anything. If you get a good barrel just about anything else can be changed for a few bucks and minutes of your time if you are dissatisfied or it breaks.
Old Dog
Member
Kudos to all thread participants here for such a (relatively) civil thread on a topic that normally becomes obnoxiously contentious (on certain AR-specific forum, for example).
My (pre-Remington) Bushmaster LW Patrolman's Carbine has been perfect. My S&W M&P-15A has been superb. My two Colt's LE-6920 M-4s are awesome. My department's Colt's are trouble-free and highly accurate. Some buddies who've recently bought Windham rifles are happy with them ... and both these guys own Daniel Defense or BCM guns ...
My experience with DPMS, abysmal. Based on that, I could not in good conscience recommend that company -- and this was not even a heavily used rifle. Ditto Olympic Arms. They still have fans up here, being local, but ...
And what -- no pics in this thread?
No reason to get into brand-bashing here, though. As others suggest, if all you need is a plinker -- with the caveat that you learn basic AR maintenance and repair -- you just might be well-served with a DPMS, Del-Ton or whatever. But -- if you can find the wherewithal to scrape up that extra $300 or so ... yeah, consider a Colt, BCM, DD, Spike's ...
Colt LE-6920 M-4 in MagPul trim w/Surefire Mini-Scout light
My (pre-Remington) Bushmaster LW Patrolman's Carbine has been perfect. My S&W M&P-15A has been superb. My two Colt's LE-6920 M-4s are awesome. My department's Colt's are trouble-free and highly accurate. Some buddies who've recently bought Windham rifles are happy with them ... and both these guys own Daniel Defense or BCM guns ...
My experience with DPMS, abysmal. Based on that, I could not in good conscience recommend that company -- and this was not even a heavily used rifle. Ditto Olympic Arms. They still have fans up here, being local, but ...
And what -- no pics in this thread?
No reason to get into brand-bashing here, though. As others suggest, if all you need is a plinker -- with the caveat that you learn basic AR maintenance and repair -- you just might be well-served with a DPMS, Del-Ton or whatever. But -- if you can find the wherewithal to scrape up that extra $300 or so ... yeah, consider a Colt, BCM, DD, Spike's ...
Colt LE-6920 M-4 in MagPul trim w/Surefire Mini-Scout light
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Chemistry Guy
Member
I have 2 ARs... one is a Colt that I use sparingly and the other is a Doublestar that I got from Bud's for $650 or so a few years back. I use the hell out of the Doublestar, shooting lots of Wolf ammo, doing mag dumps until the barrel is too hot to touch, getting dirt in the action, and generally abusing it in ways that I wouldn't abuse my Colt. As far as function goes, I can't tell the difference, although I will say I am slightly more confident in using the Doublestar because I have seen it take the abuse, but I am also confident that the Colt will hold its value and I am not sorry that I bought it in any way.
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