Are you ready for the Army to replace the M4 with the NGSW (6.8mm)?

[N9NWO]

Thanks for your service.

And given your experience, do you really believe what’s written in the Army Times? I know we never did

Army Times is open source intelligence. Which, like any newspaper, has issues. One has to have multiple sources. That is why I also put up the official page on NGSW

I am just attempting to give you a heads up.

 

[herrwalther]

When I was in they were talking about the death of the M4. The next big rifle. They were also talking about the death of the M9 too. Vast majority of the people who repeated the rumor of the end of both aren't even in the Army anymore. The M9 did end but it is still an in progress as more M17/8 are delivered. In short, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[marksman13]

We were using 11" M4s in Afghanistan so we could fire out of vehicles. A normal M4 was too big. And the muzzle flash from 5.56 was huge compared to a PDW with 9" barrel firing 7.62x35

A large muzzle flash is not enough reason for the logistical nightmare that would come from the Army adopting the 300 BLK to be used by soldiers whom don’t use weapons. Those soldiers will be issued the old M4s if the Army does ever go to 6.8mm round. If you need any proof of that, look at the M16s which were issued to those personnel when the front line troops were issued M4s. The Army doesn’t care about the ability of cooks and finance personnel to fight from vehicles.

Nothing in your comment helps explain why you feel pistols are useless and should be replaced by a short barreled rifle.

 

[.455_Hunter]

A pistol is extra weight. instead of a pistol use the weight for water or more ammo.

And for many support troops the pistol was their only weapon. Or a short barreled M4. Thus the need for a PDW

When I was armed with my pistol and doing my job, the last thing I needed would be a PDW, more water or more ammo. If an enhanced weapon was required, a proper rifle was readily at my disposal.

I am sure there could be a home for a PDW, but not for everybody who currently uses a pistol.

 

[jaysouth]

Do you have a DD214?

I have to ask, because I do, carried a pistol, and am in complete disagreement with that sentiment.

When I was a young grunt going o'er hill and dale in VN, the best day of our lives was when an announcement came down that anyone wanting to divest themselves of the GI 1911 could give it to the 1st Sgt and get it off their weapons card. Every single 1911 was turned in. The .45s that we had were useless junk. They were not reliable or accurate and required an inordinate amount of time to keep rust free. Furthermore, they would not protect us against the weapons that were killing and maiming our buddies, that is small arms ambushes, snipers, booby traps and mortar fire. The leather holster weighed over 5 pounds when wet and instantly rusted the gun unless you encased the gun in a plastic bag before you holstered it, at which point it was not deployable. For being armed to go visit the ladies in the local village or guarding prisoners, it was kind of OK, But not a single man in the battalion missed their .45. If you missed the weight of the pistol, the waterlogged leather holster, two extra mags(which rusted up daily) and the cleaning kit, you could pick up an extra frag and an extra magazine which gave you a lot more lethality than the miserable .45.

Backups? If the do-do hit the fan hard enough to require a backup, there were dozens littering the ground. You might have to roll over a body, but 'backups" abounded when needed.

 

[.455_Hunter]

When I was a young grunt going o'er hill and dale in VN, the best day of our lives was when an announcement came down that anyone wanting to divest themselves of the GI 1911 could give it to the 1st Sgt and get it off their weapons card. Every single 1911 was turned in. The .45s that we had were useless junk. They were not reliable or accurate and required an inordinate amount of time to keep rust free. Furthermore, they would not protect us against the weapons that were killing and maiming our buddies, that is small arms ambushes, snipers, booby traps and mortar fire. The leather holster weighed over 5 pounds when wet and instantly rusted the gun unless you encased the gun in a plastic bag before you holstered it, at which point it was not deployable. For being armed to go visit the ladies in the local village or guarding prisoners, it was kind of OK, But not a single man in the battalion missed their .45. If you missed the weight of the pistol, the waterlogged leather holster, two extra mags(which rusted up daily) and the cleaning kit, you could pick up an extra frag and an extra magazine which gave you a lot more lethality than the miserable .45.

Backups? If the do-do hit the fan hard enough to require a backup, there were dozens littering the ground. You might have to roll over a body, but 'backups" abounded when needed.

Yup- Sounds like a pistol wasn't your cup of tea. It's interesting to compare stories like yours to the experience of folks on the Operation Red Wings mission, who absolutely carried pistols and spare mags in addition to their shoulder weapon, spare mags and full multi-day combat load.

 

[Gordon]

Well in my two tours in RVN the 1911a1 gave me my only confirmed kill and saved a sapper from getting to the TOC . I don't think it's ideal , but under 25 yards it has worked well since 1914 or so . Ok today would rather have a Glock 19 with 16 nd mags Ranger 147+p ect. I don't think the Army should change from M4ish operating systems in 5.56 , it has proved superior to OPFOR in last 30 years . They should just concentrate on improved ammo. and weapon add ons. For squad automatics the .308 could work very well in the right format I think. both M240L and the 249 seem to work well and can be handled by a large strong soldier with the rest of squad assist. KISS principle please.

 

[Goosey]

NGSW will end up being another OICW, that's my bet. I don't get it, not as a standard issue rifle.

Heavier ammo than 5.56 even with plastic cases, with a lot more recoil. It seems like a step backwards here. 80000 psi blasts from a very stubby barrel (at least they put a mini suppressor on it). I believe the rifles as well are heavier. And with those ballistics it still won't be able to pierce through enemy body armor at any decent range despite what the press releases say.

Seems like a collection of impractical "good ideas" that would do well in a video game. Short barrel assault rifles that fire 270 WSM! Sounds like a great idea for killing aliens in Halo 7!

 

[Armorer 101]

The 6.8 is an answer to a question no one ever asked. I have owned four so far and still have two, but never shoot them, as they do not live up to the hype. The 6mm versions of the AR-15 cartridges are much better at every level, by experience. Frankly the Army has and will fritter away Billions of $ just playing with ideas.

 

[mcb]

The 6.8 is an answer to a question no one ever asked. I have owned four so far and still have two, but never shoot them, as they do not live up to the hype. The 6mm versions of the AR-15 cartridges are much better at every level, by experience. Frankly the Army has and will fritter away Billions of $ just playing with ideas.

In this case the 6.8mm is the answer to all the questions the Army asked itself. The projectile is already developed by the Army and already proven to meet the accuracy, and penetration metrics the Army wants when launched at their prescribe velocity. The companies proposing solutions to the NGSW solicitation know they must use the Army's already developed bullet and must launch it at the required velocity. How they do that is up to them, hence the three very different cartridges all launching the same bullet. I don't believe the proposing companies have even been given substantial quantities of the bullet yet and all their development work is being done with surrogate bullets. The bullet as far as we know is still fairly secret in its construction but we do know it very likely contains no lead, likely has some tungsten in it, probably in the 130-140 gr weight range and launched somewhere around 3100 fps. This is a significant step up from anything that will fit in the current M16/M4 platform.

 

[FL-NC]

I guess we'll see.

 

[N9NWO]

When I was a young grunt going o'er hill and dale in VN, the best day of our lives was when an announcement came down that anyone wanting to divest themselves of the GI 1911 could give it to the 1st Sgt and get it off their weapons card. Every single 1911 was turned in. The .45s that we had were useless junk. They were not reliable or accurate and required an inordinate amount of time to keep rust free. Furthermore, they would not protect us against the weapons that were killing and maiming our buddies, that is small arms ambushes, snipers, booby traps and mortar fire. The leather holster weighed over 5 pounds when wet and instantly rusted the gun unless you encased the gun in a plastic bag before you holstered it, at which point it was not deployable. For being armed to go visit the ladies in the local village or guarding prisoners, it was kind of OK, But not a single man in the battalion missed their .45. If you missed the weight of the pistol, the waterlogged leather holster, two extra mags(which rusted up daily) and the cleaning kit, you could pick up an extra frag and an extra magazine which gave you a lot more lethality than the miserable .45.

Backups? If the do-do hit the fan hard enough to require a backup, there were dozens littering the ground. You might have to roll over a body, but 'backups" abounded when needed.

The problem is that your experience is decades out of date.

We now wear 40 lbs of body armor. And NVG. Then add the other stuff like rifle, ammo and water. Easily 60 to 100 lbs.

 

[N9NWO]

Well in my two tours in RVN the 1911a1 gave me my only confirmed kill and saved a sapper from getting to the TOC . I don't think it's ideal , but under 25 yards it has worked well since 1914 or so . Ok today would rather have a Glock 19 with 16 nd mags Ranger 147+p ect. I don't think the Army should change from M4ish operating systems in 5.56 , it has proved superior to OPFOR in last 30 years . They should just concentrate on improved ammo. and weapon add ons. For squad automatics the .308 could work very well in the right format I think. both M240L and the 249 seem to work well and can be handled by a large strong soldier with the rest of squad assist. KISS principle please.

Now try it while wearing 40 lbs of body armor plus another 20 to 40 lbs of gear.

BTW I remember when the WW2 and Korean War vets were your age and bitching about the "mouse gun"

 

[Gordon]

Now try it while wearing 40 lbs of body armor plus another 20 to 40 lbs of gear.

BTW I remember when the WW2 and Korean War vets were your age and bitching about the "mouse gun"

I realize today's combat loads and the stress involved. I humped over a 100 pounds to the very top of Hamburger Hill in 1969, plus an M14 and lots of loaded mags. I think as was done in the past , the largest strongest should be given the larger firearm . That is the way we did it in Nam with the M60 , and in the earlier skirmishes you mentioned with M1919 ect. and BAR. I think today that concept has gone by boards . We don't need to dpown grade our firearms ability to the weakest members. BTW we complained about the cheap quality of the M16 and it's at the time reliability, especially compared to the AK . Not the bullet effectiveness under 300 yards, nor the larger ammo loads possible. Anyway , like I posted , under this admin I am very scared the brass involved will be leaned on to give the deal to the highest Democrat party benefactor - seriously !

 

[CraigC]

I would look forward to the availability of cheap practice ammo for the 6.8.

 

[CapnMac]

Wasn't the M14 meant to replace 2 weapons ?

Three, actually: M1 Garand,BAR, and M2 Carbine. The BAR replacement never quite worked out, begetting the M15, which was cancelled the day it was adopted.

The 6.8 is an answer to a question no one ever asked.

As a battle rifle, yes.
Army has identified a need for support weapons at the Squad level to have greater range & impact than the Squad's combat rifles.
They also noted that the dude humping the SAW never drew off the Squad's ammo loads (other than spare belts draped over Squad members). And, the need for specialized SAW ammo supply obviated the argument about adding an additional ammo supply at the Squad level. As far as the Puzzle Palace is concerned, they are already moving SAW ammunition by the ton for Regiment/Brigade Supply already.


The argument about side arms will never be resolved; neither will the need/best way to arm support troopies.
Most troopies are limited to, maybe, 50m with a pistol. Doctrine suggests that 'bad guys' are meant to be dealt with out around 100m by direct rifle fires, and ranging out to 300m. But, that's "open field" engagements

Now, with many current engagements being MOUT, combat ranges are much reduced--which creates an argument for fielding a PDW in a light rifle caliber.

MOUT engagements also put "support troops" in the thick of it (or fully in the rear with the gear). In that latter case they are best equipped with a USG Skillcraft, if only to reduce ND.

"Support troops" is a loaded phrase, too. An arty crew only 1 km from Forward Edge of Battle is way too close. Truck drivers working with the trains are likely to wind up in immediate (and dire) contact with little or no warning (which is redoubled in MOUT). The Supply REMFs 25-50 KM back? Well, back to that Skillcraft. A mortar crew part of the Weapons platoon of a rifle company? That's a bit more blurry. They are like to be in rifle shot distance (if badly placed) ut working mortars with slung rifles is not a "best practice."

 

[d2wing]

I realize today's combat loads and the stress involved. I humped over a 100 pounds to the very top of Hamburger Hill in 1969, plus an M14 and lots of loaded mags. I think as was done in the past , the largest strongest should be given the larger firearm . That is the way we did it in Nam with the M60 , and in the earlier skirmishes you mentioned with M1919 ect. and BAR. I think today that concept has gone by boards . We don't need to dpown grade our firearms ability to the weakest members. BTW we complained about the cheap quality of the M16 and it's at the time reliability, especially compared to the AK . Not the bullet effectiveness under 300 yards, nor the larger ammo loads possible. Anyway , like I posted , under this admin I am very scared the brass involved will be leaned on to give the deal to the highest Democrat party benefactor - seriously !

A guy that lives near me was on Hamburger Hill too. Off hand his name escapes me. I should give him a call.

 

[d2wing]

When I was a young grunt going o'er hill and dale in VN, the best day of our lives was when an announcement came down that anyone wanting to divest themselves of the GI 1911 could give it to the 1st Sgt and get it off their weapons card. Every single 1911 was turned in. The .45s that we had were useless junk. They were not reliable or accurate and required an inordinate amount of time to keep rust free. Furthermore, they would not protect us against the weapons that were killing and maiming our buddies, that is small arms ambushes, snipers, booby traps and mortar fire. The leather holster weighed over 5 pounds when wet and instantly rusted the gun unless you encased the gun in a plastic bag before you holstered it, at which point it was not deployable. For being armed to go visit the ladies in the local village or guarding prisoners, it was kind of OK, But not a single man in the battalion missed their .45. If you missed the weight of the pistol, the waterlogged leather holster, two extra mags(which rusted up daily) and the cleaning kit, you could pick up an extra frag and an extra magazine which gave you a lot more lethality than the miserable .45.

Backups? If the do-do hit the fan hard enough to require a backup, there were dozens littering the ground. You might have to roll over a body, but 'backups" abounded when needed.

Good to hear your perspective.

 

[12Bravo20]

I think as was done in the past , the largest strongest should be given the larger firearm . That is the way we did it in Nam with the M60 , and in the earlier skirmishes you mentioned with M1919 ect. and BAR.

Someone obviously forgot to tell the chain of command in just about every unit I was assigned to that they should give the biggest guy the M60. I am 5'10" and averaged about 125-130 pounds the entire time I was in the Army and the M60 was my primary weapon for most of the time I was in.

Now as far as a new weapon system being deployed, I'll believe it when the Army actually starts issuing the weapons to the troops. And I can tell you from personal experience that the Big Army is very slow to issue new weapons systems to the troops. When not issued the M60, I was issued a M16A1 until 1992. I didn't get issued a M16A2 until I arrived in Germany in Jan 92. My unit in Germany still had the 1911's and M3A1's. Yes my secondary was the 1911 to go with the M60. And it took quite a while before units other than SOCOM, 82nd and 101st to get issued the M4. I got out in 1996 and never saw the M4 that I was to be issued as a replacement for the M3A1.

 

[d2wing]

Part of the problem is the answers are usually for a war already fought. It's hard to say who you will fight and where next. I understand the logistics of a one size fits all. But it doesn't always work out that way as it's hard for a single weapon system and ammo to cover all the bases.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I got out in 1996 and never saw the M4 that I was to be issued as a replacement for the M3A1.

The unit I joined in January 1999 had just replaced their M3A1s with non-optics M4s in the summer of 1998.

 

[N9NWO]

Someone obviously forgot to tell the chain of command in just about every unit I was assigned to that they should give the biggest guy the M60. I am 5'10" and averaged about 125-130 pounds the entire time I was in the Army and the M60 was my primary weapon for most of the time I was in.

Now as far as a new weapon system being deployed, I'll believe it when the Army actually starts issuing the weapons to the troops. And I can tell you from personal experience that the Big Army is very slow to issue new weapons systems to the troops. When not issued the M60, I was issued a M16A1 until 1992. I didn't get issued a M16A2 until I arrived in Germany in Jan 92. My unit in Germany still had the 1911's and M3A1's. Yes my secondary was the 1911 to go with the M60. And it took quite a while before units other than SOCOM, 82nd and 101st to get issued the M4. I got out in 1996 and never saw the M4 that I was to be issued as a replacement for the M3A1.

The M60 was replaced by the M249 SAW (5.56) and the M240B/G (7.62). The M240 is mostly used on vehicles or fixed.

 

[marksman13]

Now try it while wearing 40 lbs of body armor plus another 20 to 40 lbs of gear.

BTW I remember when the WW2 and Korean War vets were your age and bitching about the "mouse gun"

A Beretta M9 and four spare mags was not much additional weight, especially when most of our patrols in Iraq were mounted patrols. Even on foot patrols I don’t know that I ever noticed the weight on the pistol on my hip. I certainly didn’t notice the extra weight of the mags attached to my vest. If you want to tote a rifle and a short barreled “PDW” of something type, be my guest. If you want to tote only a rifle, go ahead. If I know I’m going into a fight I’m going to have a rifle and a sidearm. Weapons fail all the time and this isn’t Vietnam where you can just grab your dead buddy’s rifle. Our current wars just aren’t being fought that way. There aren’t nearly as many mass casualty situations and the modern warfighter is much more likely to find himself in the front of a four man stack going into a doorway to face one or two armed combatants than to find himself in the middle of an L-shaped ambush with multiple combatants. The military has put more emphasis on individual survival for that reason. That’s also why it makes more sense to keep pistols in the inventory and issue M4s to secondary and support units if a new rifle does come to fruition.

 

[Sistema1927]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Yet, it won't make a dime's worth of difference to me, seeing as how I carried the M16A1, 1911A1, and M60 during various times way back in the stone age.

 

[Nature Boy]

The M60 was replaced by the M249 SAW (5.56) and the M240B/G (7.62). The M240 is mostly used on vehicles or fixed.

Not to nit pic here, but the M240B has been the designated replacement for the M60, not the M249. I know this because when our M60s no long passed gage testing, we got brand spanking new 240Bs as replacements