Armed airline pilots

[wjustinen]

Good point!

The same can happen with an armed pilot or air marshall. Suppose five terrorists plot to take over a plane. One of them starts trouble by threatening the passengers. The pilot/marshall, sidearm in hand, goes to deal with the aggressor and gets jumped from behind by the four accomplices. Now they have a gun, and they still carry out the attacks.

Of course I disagree entirely with your premise that keeping guns off of airplanes is a good idea. I'm sure you have heard the term "victim disarmament zone."

I saw a piece on - NBC? - yesterday where North American airline security was compared with Israeli. The difference being that the Israelis hire intelligent, well trained security personnel who are paid very well to determine if the passenger is someone who shouldn't be allowed on board.

Then they provide armed guards to take care of any bad guy who slips through. Personally, I have a problem leaving the defence of myself and my loved ones in the hands of someone else. It doesn't work in daily life on the ground, it hasn't worked in the air, or on the high seas.

I'm not aware of any problems during the first four decades of airline travel when you could walk onto a plane with a pistol in your pocket quite legitimately. Hi-jackings and terrorist activities became a problem about the time that it became virtually impossible for the average person to lawfully carry a concealed weapon in most of North America.

As a pilot and retired air traffic controller, I have observed that airport security is designed - in the main - to make the little old lady in tennis shoes believe that someone is looking out for her.

Interestingly, my experience has been that the "little old lady in tennis shoes" is often a healthy young male who can't be bothered to think for himself.

 

[thumper723]

Kelly, you wont' boil your blood.

I've done explosive decompression at 36K, which is MUCH more violent than just hitting the cabin dump/outflow valves. Blodd did not boil. I did let out one helluva fart though, along with the rest on the chamber ride.

Are there risks? Yep. Probably a lot less than introducing any sort of chemical agent into the cabin.

The best part, is it is insidious, and they won't even realize it. Just need an override on the masks dropping.

 

[hrgrisso]

Kellyj

Yes the air is thinner up there. However it's not thin enough to cause any damage to the Air Craft or it's occupants. I've heard it before, sorry no source, but when I was purusing my private pilots license (piper cubs etc.) we talked about depressurization. They said in the little planes were never pressurized and even depressurization in big planes wasn't an issue. People's ears will pop and some may get light headed and pass out. To the best of my knowledge, no serious injury.

 

[rritter]

You maybe could even let the masks drop when depressurizing the cabin. A hijacker would have the choice of grabbing a mask (which limits his mobility) or pass out in 30 seconds or so. Somebody tied to his seat by an oxygen mask isn't going to be able to do much damage.

 

[zeroskillz]

They say an armed society is a polite society

 

[The Law]

Wouldn't allowing CCWs on airplanes be far cheaper than hiring and training a slew of Air Marshals? This just seems way more cost effective.

The "gun free zone" policy has been shown to be a fallacy. Why reinforce it?

 

[obxned]

Armed pilots would make flying a whole lot safer. It is difficult to hijack a plane when access to the cockpit is fatal.

 

[TallPine]

Seperate the cockpit from the cab with an air-tight seal....(not new technology to airplanes, everything is air tight) and give the pilots the ability to 'gas' the cab if need be. Nothing like a bunch of laughing gas to stop a BG dead in his tracks. You could even use tear gas, or some sort of knock out gas or something. Hell, I'm no anesthesiologist...but I'm sure they aren't all that harmful.

Yeah, that's why you can buy that stuff at Walgreens and use it to get high anytime you want

 

[7GenTex]

How about this one.......

Every adult passenger gets a handgun and ONE bullet

 

[jefnvk]

One last thought I have, it is my understanding that in an airplane, or on a ship, the captain/pilot is in complete control of everything that goes on. Is this correct?

What if the pilot says no guns?

 

[shooter503]

What is never mentioned is that the armored cockpit door was never, not one little bit or for one moment, ever considered as a way to save the aircraft. The point of the armored door is that the aircraft cannot be taken over and used as a missile to hit a target on the ground - WHICH MAY JUST BE FILLED WITH POLITICIANS.

The cargo in the hold of an aircraft is not fully examined. The personnel who enter the airport through the gates that you never see are not examined. The security clearances for the people with accesss to aircraft are a joke.

An aircraft can be destroyed in flight by a bomb in the cargo area or the passenger cabin. Hijackers can still take over the passenger area of an aircraft with the crudest of weapons. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT. A passenger is expendable, the crew is expendable, the aircraft is expendable. The number one job of an Air Marshall is to protect the cockpit, why? Hidden in the fog of all the claimed security measures is that the only reason we have security is to protect "important" people on the ground. That is the real reason for armored cockpit doors.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I mean, the bad guy says "I have a bomb; if you don't give me the controls I'm going to blow up the plane," and you're just going to let him fly it? Oh, cool, now he gets to blow up the plane while killing hundreds or thousands more! So, instead, "he says he has a bomb -- get him!"

I'm entirely okay with armed pilots.

Hell, I'm entirely okay with armed passengers!

I agree 100%. Even if it doesn't mean training for everyone that wants to carry aboard airliners.

 

[Blackbeard]

Possibly, but what if people with CCW permits were allowed to carry on board? If the terrorists have no idea how many people could be armed on the flight, it kind of puts a crimp in their plans. For all they'd know, everyone on the flight could be armed, including the flight crew. I think that would have served as an effective deterrent.

I based my statement on the assumption that CCW on airplanes is just a pipe dream. It'll never happen. Call me a pessimist.

Allowing CCW on the plane may have made it more difficult, but still not impossible. We can assume that if it were allowed, the terrorists would all be armed, much better shots than your average CCW, and would have the CCWs outnumbered.

 

[Blackbeard]

And how, exactly, would the plans have differed? As I recall, there were Air Marshalls prior to 9/11, just not as any. How did the terrorists know that there wouldn't be one on their particular flight?

I'm afraid we'll never know if they had a contingency plan. What do you suppose an air marshall would do with 5 guys who say they have a bomb? Would he risk shooting one and possibly allow them to blow up the plane? Keep in mind that in pre-9/11 world the policy was to cooperate and everyone gets out alive.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

We can assume that if it were allowed, the terrorists would all be armed, much better shots than your average CCW, and would have the CCWs outnumbered.

Methinks you assume too much. Why don't we just lay down our arms and give in to the terrorists now and save needless bloodshed?

 

[Blackbeard]

Methinks you assume too much. Why don't we just lay down our arms and give in to the terrorists now and save needless bloodshed?

If you were Osama Bin Laden and the US allowed weapons on planes, wouldn't' you choose 5 or more CCW holders to do your bidding?

Look, I'm not advocating gun-free zones. I'm not saying CCW shouldn't apply to airlines. I'm only saying that it's pointless to go through all the hyper-security procedures to keep guns off of planes, if you're going to put one on there anyway.

I'm fully in favor of screening the passengers instead of the luggage. Of course, that'll never happen, either. Airlines would never assume that kind of liability.

 

[harrygunner]

I'm saddened that people still think pilots should be helpless.

The cockpit had a value equal to the people and structures targeted on the ground.

An overtaken cockpit turns the jetliner into a guided missile. So, the cockpit must be strongly guarded at every level.

I had an airline pilot as a training partner during a practice session once. He was a good shot.

It occurred to me that the hand-eye coordination needed to fly a jetliner makes for good shooters.

I'd feel better knowing that guy was up front with his HK 40 S&W.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Can't Be Done

I must agree that it's impossible to defend airplanes.

That's why the hijackers spent months hijacking Israeli planes before they hijacked ours.

That's why we lose six or eight Israeli planes every month to hijackers.

You know what gags me?

Israel is interested only in being effective at airline security.

We've got Political Correctness, pandering, and government authority all prioritized above actual, real, working security.

Israel is effective.

We are massively inconvenient, expensive, arrogant, and lucky.

We were all set to outsource port security so we could peek at some files.

Yet we insist on putting the most inefficient, ineffective, bumbling agencies we can in charge of "keeping air travel safe" here at home.

How about we outsource air travel security to the Israelis?

Or maybe "effective" was never the objective?

 

[mlandman]

Airline security is all about politics. You can not afford to get caught by something that was in the press.

We must take off our shoes because Mr. Reed hid C4 in his. Same with lighters. I check my sidearm when I travel to states that allow. One time I had 25 rounds of 9mm +P. That's over 2 oz. of pistol powder, but they found my Bic lighter in the same bag and took it away!

What has the bomb squad been bringing along in their trucks for the last 20 years in case they need to blow something up? You guessed it, binary liquid explosives! We NOW can't carry mouthwash because some folks in GB planned to use binary explosives. :banghead:

If you book less than 24 hours before flight, you get screened and wanded. I travel 2 to 4 times a month for work, generally with no lead time and get wanded regularly. Is the idea that after 18 months of planning and training, bad guys forget to book their flight till the night before?

Most planes have 40,000 lbs of unchecked cargo and I can not bring a bottle of water?

It's just pathetic!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I may be in the minority here, ...

I think it is probably safe to say you've got that part right.

 

[CTPistol]

More pilots than you think are armed today!



No, they dont come out of the cockpit to handle any situations...they are there to guard the cockpit.

You wont see another 9/11 hijackers with boxcutter thing ever happen again, regardless of armed pilots.....

9/11 happened due to lax attitudes. Just let a group of 5 terrorists start acting up and grabbing peoples throats on any airliner I (we) ride on today. Myself and probabaly 90% of the other pax will stomp them to death in minutes. None of us will ever forget 9/11

The "overtake the airplane" thing is done folks, stop worrying about carrying your pistol onboard in order to play hero....worry more about the plastic exposives tucked neatly underneath in baggage or the shoulder launched rocket 1.5 miles off the end of the runway --- theres your potential threats.

 

[Ready2Defend]

If the plane depressurizes the O2 masks drop, suddenly everyone who wants to stay conscious is teathered to their o2 mask. Hard to rush a cockpit then.

On CCW in the air: I like the idea and believe it would work. But our mindset is also different and it is the change in mindset that is making a bigger difference.

I think that while 9/11 is a recent memory it is unlikly for a jury to award damages for a pilot not opening the cockpit even though hostages are killed.

 

[JeffKnox]

Some of you guys worry me

You're elitists just like Rosie and Hillary.
Allow CCW's on the plane -
Yeah, but only specially trained CCW's -
But what about terrorists getting CCW's?
Oh, we'll have to do special, double-secret background checks on the specially trained CCW's.

GET BACK TO THE FOUNDATION!

Guns are tools.
People commit crime and acts of stupidity.
Licensing and training has NO effect on crime and stupidity!
Training MIGHT increase effectiveness in a fight but it has NO impact on criminal behavior or acts of stupidity.
Requiring a permit to bear arms is a violation of basic human rights.
Advocating special training to bear arms is an affront to human intelligence.
States which require NO TRAINING have no more problems with acts of stupidity (sometimes called "accidents") than states which require extensive training.
Some of the stupidest mistakes I've ever seen or heard of involving guns were committed by the most highly trained individuals (because they allowed themselves to become TOO comfortable with guns or too trusting of others.)

I'm not saying that training is a bad thing. I'm a big advocate of training. I'm saying that MANDATORY Training in order to obtain government permission to exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed, basic human Right is just plain wrong.

Either guns are too dangerous for average people to own and carry or they are not.

Stop buying into the idiotic argument that background checks and mandatory training serve any purpose in making concealed carry safer - they don't!

It's not mandatory licensing, training, and testing that keeps you safe on the road, it's your situational awareness and ability to dodge. Those idiots got drivers licenses, could they drive any worse if they hadn't?

The only kind of mandatory training that makes any sense would be if all elementary, middle, and high school students were taught firearms safety as part of their standard curriculum.

I must admit that mandatory hunter safety education helps reduce stupidity in the field, but in the field, the gun is already in hand and the individual is actively seeking something to shoot - much easier to be stupid out of ignorance. With CC, the gun is tucked away and only an idiot is going to shuck it when he shouldn't and only someone several steps below an idiot is going to pop a cap when he shouldn't and there's just no amount of training that can fix that kind of stupid.

I don't mean to lecture, but come on guys; you're not that special.

Everything anyone needs to know about gun safety, they knew by kindergarten:

The bullet comes out here
You pull this to make it go "Bang"
Whatever it's pointed at when it goes bang is killed or destroyed.

Every 5-year old knows that so everything beyond that is just practice and "what if's".

The rules for CC go a little further:

1. Don't pull it unless you really have to
2. Don't point it unless you're prepared to kill what you're pointing at
and
3. Don't even consider carrying unless you are confident that you can and will kill someone if necessary and are willing to accept that responsibility.

A responsible person will seek training and practice to reach and maintain that comfort level (which can vary greatly between individuals), an irresponsible individual or a criminal will behave irresponsibly or criminally regardless of the laws or rules.

Gun control only controls the guns of people who don't need government help controling their guns.

CCW permits, mandatory training, and background checks are all just variations of gun control and they're all wasteful symptoms of mistrust and elitism.

Rights can not be "permitted".

Jeff Knox
The Firearms Coalition

 

[xd9fan]

I'm in favor of of sealing the cockpit, and feeding it with its own air supply. Hijackers try to take over, pilots release a gas to knock everyone out until they can land. Minus any sort of reaction to the gas, no one gets hurt.

I dunno, maybe such a gas isn't possible. Works in my mind though.

Good God
Can't we law abiding americans just go about our business with our CC, instead of a color code of worry from Govt and being told to just go about our business while Big Govt takes care of everything?

Gee which one is compatible with a free society?
Gee which one is cheaper and more effective?

Pretty sure my life is worth the same on the ground as in the air. I had no idea self-protection was an ineffective concept once one is in the air?

 

[def4pos8]

WOW! Y'all sure are capable of providing me with some entertaining reading!!

I only noticed a single post that admitted to being an aviator.

I am an aviator in addition to a user of firearms. Ditto one of my sons. He is also an airline pilot.

An air transport pilot is the Master of his vessel. Your Rights stop at the cabin door. He/she might welcome armed passengers but company policies generally prohibit this.

Airline pilots are informed of the general tactics to be employed by air marshalls -- not specifics.

Cockpit doors/bulkheads have been upgraded to resist firearms.

A program exists to arm aircrews. My son will qualify under this program shortly. The bad guys, if they think about it at all, know that it is possible that the aircrew is armed. It's the same deterrent effect that extends a "safety halo" to non-CCW citizens.

Regarding pressurization issues: aircraft can endure perforation of the pressure cabin without serious adverse affects to the cargo (passengers). It's just a guess on my part, but I imagine that the aircrew will execute an emergency descent after the first shot. Life in the cabin will be interesting as everyone learns precisely how fast an air transport can descend. . . .

Calm down folks. If you conceive a certain scenario, learn as much as you can regarding the activity before permitting your imagination to take off like a varmint bullet! :banghead: