Armed Citizen Intervenes

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Glad it all worked out.

Dosser pulled and displayed his weapon before he knew what was happening. It was luck the armed men turned out to be robbers -- they could have been undercover officers, other concealed carry citizens attempting to render assistance, etc. Any could rightly have shot him thinking their lives were in danger.

Also, he pulled and showed when his life wasn't immediately threatened, nor was the life of the store owner because the robbers were locked out. If he'd had to use deadly force, he might've gotten away with it but a zealous DA would have room to push, and a civil suit could be devastating.

If you're convinced you have to draw but it isn't an issue of immediate threat, there's a lot to be said for a low hold behind the leg or in a jacket pocket unless and until you need to shoot.

Ultimately, I wasn't in the man's shoes and can't say I wouldn't have done exactly the same. His instincts were proved right and in the end that matters most, but a lot went on that's outside the rule book and could've gone more wrong than needed.
 
Hapworth said:
Dosser pulled and displayed his weapon before he knew what was happening. It was luck the armed men turned out to be robbers -- they could have been undercover officers, other concealed carry citizens attempting to render assistance, etc.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that robbers that have just been locked out would probably act noticeably differently from police or armed citizens trying to render aid.

From the story, it sounded like he was suspicious of their behavior even before he saw the gun, and he did not draw until after he saw it.

Also, he pulled and showed when his life wasn't immediately threatened, nor was the life of the store owner because the robbers were locked out.
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Being locked out wouldn't have stopped the robbers from shooting the owner, unless the store had bullet-resistant glass.
 
PiratePenguin said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that robbers that have just been locked out would probably act noticeably differently from police or armed citizens trying to render aid.
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We can speculate, but at present the only thing we have to render an assessment from is the article and Dosser's quotations in it. He said the men were "super agitated" -- that covers a lot of potential scenarios, to include those mentioned and more. Then he saw the gun and drew his, although he had not yet been detected by them, didn't know what was happening, was not under immediate, direct threat, and was only in proximity to potential threat because he placed himself there.

From the story, it sounded like he was suspicious of their behavior even before he saw the gun, and he did not draw until after he saw it.
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More confused; Dosser is quoted as saying "nothing made sense". Then, yes, he saw a gun so pulled his.

Being locked out wouldn't have stopped the robbers from shooting the owner, unless the store had bullet-resistant glass.
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No it wouldn't have...yet they didn't, and nothing in the article or from Dosser's description indicates he perceived an immediate mortal threat to a clerk or anyone else.

Again, I wasn't there and am not Dosser -- as stated, I may well have done everything he did. But by the book he did some things wrong. And I think the police department agrees: while understandably lauding Dosser for being a brave, concerned citizen, the police spokesman goes on to tacitly say to the citizens of Minneapolis not to do what Dosser did by reminding readers that concealed carriers are instructed not to intervene in similar situations.

Frankly, in regards to the interaction between Dosser and the robbers, it all played out before anyone knew exactly what was happening and thankfully nobody squeezed triggers.
 
Dosser pulled and displayed his weapon before he knew what was happening. It was luck the armed men turned out to be robbers -- they could have been undercover officers, other concealed carry citizens attempting to render assistance, etc.
Click to expand...

He drew his weapon out of concern for the life of another - sounds perfectly legal. Yeah, they could have been all those things, but haven't it out already may be what have saved his life as well.

Also, he pulled and showed when his life wasn't immediately threatened, nor was the life of the store owner because the robbers were locked out.
Click to expand...

One may engage in self defense of another. There isn't a state in the country that defines self defense law as only pertaining to yourself.

The owner was not safe simply because the robbers were locked out, LOL.
 
From the article:
.....> Police generally advise people to call 911 rather than try to stop a crime
.....> themselves, and on Wednesday, Elder also warned that having a permit
.....>to carry a gun doesn’t let someone act as a police officer.

.....> “The permit system is different, obviously, than having a police officer’s
.....> license,” Elder said. “When people get a permit to carry, they are
.....> instructed not to intercede into a crime that is occurring. It’s solely for
.....> personal protection.”

So rendering aid (while armed) to an obviously beaten and bleeding man -- who is screaming for help against
intruders now beating on his door -- is advised against in favor of just "calling 911" while the crime
actually then goes down in real time ?

I'm throwing the BS flag on that one.
It smacks of the ultimate surrender of a citizen's ethical duty to another... and surrender to the whole concept
of state-as-nanny/assume the victim position until nanny deigns to arrive.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
He drew his weapon out of concern for the life of another - sounds perfectly legal. Yeah, they could have been all those things, but haven't it out already may be what have saved his life as well.



One may engage in self defense of another. There isn't a state in the country that defines self defense law as only pertaining to yourself.

The owner was not safe simply because the robbers were locked out, LOL.
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Where in the article does it state Dosser was aware of the clerk before he entered the store, after the robbers departed?
 
Our state says that we can defend ourselves, or stop a felony in progress.
 
It strikes me that Matt Dosser did the right thing and did it correctly!

The police spokesman, John Elder, said that Matt Dosser acted nobly and honorably, and quite probably saved the store clerks life.

You can't get a much better endorsement from the police than that!

Criticizing the gun holder based on the information in this story is silly at best, and at worst points out a serious problem with some gun owners, which is some people really don't believe in self defense.

As far as the bad guys in the story possibly being under cover police, it seems unlikely.:rolleyes:
Although undercover cops have been known to do some really stupid things from time to time, such as making an undercover buy in a convenience store parking lot, then pulling on a ski mask, and entering the store to arrest the drug dealer with a drawn gun, and not announcing herself as police. The store clerk promptly shot her! She lived, the store clerk was exonerated, and the police apologized for lack of training for it's officers. No word about what happened to the drug dealer.
 
Hapworth said:
Where in the article does it state Dosser was aware of the clerk before he entered the store, after the robbers departed?
Click to expand...

Hapworth, if I am walking down a street, and I see a couple of people behaving in a very suspicious manner, and pounding on the window, and acting real agitated, and I see a gun, I am damn well going to pull mine! He didn't point it at them, he merely held it at the ready. they saw him and decided to run. He didn't pursue them, he went to the aid of the store clerk.
He did everything right!

So say the police.

What difference does it make if Dosser was aware of the clerk, A Mohamed S. Ahmed, was wounded at the time?
 
It is sad that our society seems to have developed this idea that only the police should stop crime, intervene, protect others, or even just check out a suspicious person in the neighborhood. In reality, all citizens have the same duties and responsibilities regarding public safety. The difference is that police are those citizens that we have hired to do certain things full time in service to the community. That is the theory anyway. There is a great quote from Sir Robert Peel (often regarded as the father of modern policing) that expresses this well. I can't look it up right now.
 
There's a really good post about the street and carrying a gun, maybe it would be a good read for those who believe he shouldn't have drawn his gun. You should read it. One of the best pieces of advice is that when something isn't right and you're scared, you should draw that pistol and get it ready to use.

If you see some pissed off guy carrying a pistol and banging on a gas station door, something is wrong. If you feel the need to draw that weapon, then do it. It'll do no good in the holster, and if you get shot or assaulted by a criminal because you refuse to draw your gun until a pissed off bad guy holding a pistol actually points it at you and pulls the trigger, you won't have to worry about being charged with brandishing; you'll be worried about your own funeral plans.

You do not (and should not) wait to draw your weapon until a criminal points a gun at you and pulls the trigger. That's a real good way to end up dead.
 
I agree with a lot of what's been said so far in this thread. It sounds like the concealed weapons holder (who I applaud) felt like this was a crime in progress. I also appears his life wasn't directly threatened. I may or may not have done this, but I still recognize this as a courageous act.

While many of us continue to explore possible factual rationals for this...I think is was simply instinct. How many times have you been walking down the street at night, perhaps in the wrong part of town, and you see a couple guys that something just doesn't seem right about? Although you couldn't put your finger on it...alarm bells are going off...and you are immediately at a heightened state of awareness.

I wasn't there...so I don't want to take pot shots at this guy. During my last tour in A-Stan, I had similar experiences where I had to draw far more from instinct than the ROE book would prefer. I've learned to trust that instinct.
 
"Also, he pulled and showed when his life wasn't immediately threatened, nor was the life of the store owner because the robbers were locked out. If he'd had to use deadly force, he might've gotten away with it but a zealous DA would have room to push, and a civil suit could be devastating."

Similar to what i have been trying to say. Real world situations are very complicated and legal issues can be very thorny.

Its worth noting that the LAW puts us at a disadvantage, and sometimes in grave danger. If we obey the letter of the law, we could easily be killed. What does the law want us to do ... NOT draw and fire our weapon until we are in grave danger. But this means that an armed criminal has already drawn his own weapon and is ready to fire. Therefore, we are at high risk. That is the only time when we could argue WITHOUT A DOUBT that a serious danger existed and we had no alternatives. Its a real problem.

People here keep searching for that "magic answer" that provides a perfect solution. I honestly do not think it exists. We are protected by the law if defending our homes and loved ones ... Otherwise we are very much out in the cold. Legally, anyway.

CA R
 
a gun fight is a risky proposition at best. unless somebody's life is in danger (as in directly threatened or under assault) let it go. banks are insured and the vast majority of criminals want to just get the loot and scoot.
 
Yeah... I think most of us are sick and tired of thugs who think they can get by with whatever they want. That's really all I have to say about it.
 
One may engage in self defense of another. There isn't a state in the country that defines self defense law as only pertaining to yourself.
Click to expand...
For some good reading, check up on Wyoming Law. With the exception of the "Castle Doctrine", everything else is based on case law. There is nothing in Wyoming Statute that allows you to come to the aid of another...it would be up to the jury to decide. On the bright side, if the jury decides in your favor, we do have statutes that prevent subsequent civil suits...at the state level.
 
JERRY said:
a gun fight is a risky proposition at best. unless somebody's life is in danger (as in directly threatened or under assault) let it go. banks are insured and the vast majority of criminals want to just get the loot and scoot.
Click to expand...

This wasn't a bank robbery, this was an armed assault upon an unarmed person. Dosser never pointed his weapon at them, as they apparently never pointed theirs at him. This was not a gun fight, in that no shots were fired, and the victim, Mohamed Ahmed was under assault!

I realize that many people are busy, and don't want to get involved, especially if there is some small amount of risk.

What would you do if you saw an armed man assaulting a women on the street? What if you didn't know he was armed? What if you hear a woman screaming rape? Just walk on because it is none of your business, because intervening might be dangerous?

Civil society demands our coming to the aid of others.

I might remind people of the parable of the good Samaritan. Luke 10:25 to 37

Look it up and read it!
 
It’s easy to view the subject experience with the luxury of hindsight as opposed to real time and being there.
 
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