Quantcast

Arming a Friend

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bja5006, Oct 6, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bja5006

    bja5006 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pennsyltucky
    Today a coworker informed me that a man she ratted out to police recently made bail. He will be out for a few months, and is facing a rather hefty sentence if (when) convicted. She is an older woman and is taking it really hard. She works the late shift (10pm-4am) and has expressed her concern for her safety from this man or his shady friends late at night.

    I offered for her to borrow my revolver to take home with her. Keeping it at work would not legally be a problem, and she would have to open carry it in public. I am the original owner of the gun and can prove ownership.

    My question is: IF something were to happen where she would need to defend herself, and say she fires at the man, would there be legal consequences for me?

    Is it a good or bad idea to loan a gun to a responsible (and vulnerable) friend? She isnt financially able to buy her own gun at the moment, although she wants to.

    I live in Pennsylvania if that makes a difference.

    Thanks a lot!
     
  2. Claude Clay

    Claude Clay Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    2,701
    Location:
    CT
    laws and laywers

    ain't sure which more strongly creates the need for the other; but you need one now to tell you about the other. you are good to want to help out another--but do it with knowledge before heart.

    that's an answer about you....but what about her & a gun. does she have any training? would she be able to shoot to save herself? even if it is something she 'thinks' she wants to have--it may perhaps work against her. do you have answers for this? does she?
     
  3. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    5,435
    Location:
    Howard County, Merry Land
    I would contact a lawyer in your state. Free advice on the internet is usually worth just about what you pay for it.
     
  4. igpoobah

    igpoobah Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    588
    Location:
    Arkansas
    If she is a trustworthy friend, sell her the gun for $1, with bill of sale mind you.

    Just make dang sure she understands that she will sell it back to you when she's done with it, for the same price..
     
  5. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    I think you're taking a pretty big risk. Assuming you don't need to go through any paperwork to do a transfer in your state, you are better off doing a clean transfer with a form by her certifying she is old enough to purchase a firearm, is not going to do anything illegal with it and is legally able to own one. Otherwise, you could be on the hook in a civil case for negligent entrustment. Even then there are risks--potentially big ones. The very best way is to simply direct her to a gun store to buy one. Sounds kind of cold, but unfortunately you may "know too much" to get involved further, at least without taking a risk.

    I doubt that would fly. A sale should be a sale. If you rig some kind of fraudulent transfer it could be deemed an entrustment, since you are still exercising control over the firearm in the sense that you demand it back.
     
  6. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    857
    Location:
    CT
    I'd take her to the range, and make sure she knows the ins and outs of loading, unloading, firing, and safely handling it, as well as the safety rules. Also have a serious talk with her stressing that she shouldn't expect to pull it out and everything will be fine.. she has to be prepared to use it, and she has to learn and know the laws.
    It's a big responsibility, and I'd consider it very carefully.
    Selling it to her cheap, with the agreement that she sells it back is a good idea, should you decide to do it.
     
  7. contenderman

    contenderman Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Northern, OH
    I today's world they will go after anyone and everyone in civil suits, so you should assume that in such a case you'll be involved. However, do as already advised ... get the opinion of an actual attorney.

    Secondly, while PA is one of the states I am licensed in I only have a working knowledge of the carry laws as they apply to licensed individuals. There has been much "cyber ink" on open carry issues in PA, as well as other states. So her open carrying a gun may raise a bunch of problems in and of itself.

    What I would suggest is to check into the emergency/temporary permit options. The local law enforcement she worked with in turning the guy in should be more than willing to assist her in obtaining such a permit if that option is open to her.

    Yes, your still in the loop if you provide the gun, but the permit cleans things up a bit.

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    3,454
    Location:
    eastern Massachusetts
    Amen.

    A gun is not a good luck charm. It will only work as a defensive tool (or as a deterrent--sometimes) if the user is stone-cold certain that if attacked, they are going to stop that attack by all means necessary.

    Part of that certainty can be provided by training, practice and the confidence that they provide. A lot to ask in a short time.

    I'm not saying that a gun neophyte couldn't possibly defend themselves with a gun, but they stand a much higher risk than a trained person of having the gun taken away if they aren't clear on when to shoot--or even on whether they'll really shoot if the attacker won't back down.

    We had a mini-crime spree here a few years ago, and I considered arming our nanny (who's with the kids most of some days). Then I thought hard about it. And bought pepper spray instead.

    Will she consider pepper spray? If not--do you have a 20 gauge shotgun you can lend/sell her?

    Best of luck to you both.
     
  9. j_charles

    j_charles Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Oregon
    +1 That's what I was thinking. Makes everything more official if something does happen. Then offer to take her to the range and teach her the basics. She can't think that just having it will do anything all on its own. It's not a force field. Maybe even be a gentleman and pay for thee range time? Just a thought. All in all, I think you're right to help her out, just make sure you don't get shafted for all your good citizenry.
     
  10. Treo

    Treo member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    3,110
    Location:
    Co. Springs
    I'm thinking shotgun/ pepperspray as well. Loaning out a handgun just seems like one of those things that could go really, really bad
     
  11. bja5006

    bja5006 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pennsyltucky
    she has fired handguns before, and i will definitely take her to the range to get used to it. common sense, safe handling, and practicallity aside, i'm just looking for the legal issues here.

    she also is trying to get an officer to escort her to her car at night from work. we live in such a nice area, that people (even the police) tend to let their guard down and just assume things wont happen.

    they dont seem concerned for her, which enraged me and led to my discussion with her about carrying.
     
  12. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    3,454
    Location:
    eastern Massachusetts
    Well, you're in the right forum. But there's a saying they use around here A LOT: "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

    It applies in this case, in so much as I wouldn't even begin to consider the liability questions until after I had made sure she was as safe as she could legally be.

    No offense meant--only trying to be helpful.

    Oh, BTW--if some legal-eagle prosecutor decides (in the aftermath if she shoots this guy in the near future) that it was not self-defense but a premeditated murder, then her acquiring the weapon will be an element of that pre-meditation.

    So, in that case you may be looking at a choice: an invitation from said prosecutor to testify against her; or an invitation to stand trial as a co-conspirator. Or both.

    Ain't life grand!

    IANAL
     
  13. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,507
    Location:
    Silver Springs NV
    As long as she is legal to possess a gun in your state I don't think theres any problem with it. I've loaned guns out to trusted friends and it was never a problem.
     
  14. razorback2003

    razorback2003 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,231
    Get a License

    If she can legally own a gun in PA, she should be able to get a license in PA. I have heard getting a license in PA is a matter of filling out a little paperwork and passing a quick background check. It is nothing like what people in AR, TX, or TN have to go through to get one and wait forever after spending time and money on training classes and fees.

    That said, i would also encourage her to look on the second hand market for a good clean used revolver. You can get a clean new Rossi snub for around 200 bucks....a four inch shouldn't be much more and would be easier to shoot.

    That said, selling a firearm is just that, selling. If you expect the firearm to be given back to you, then that is loaning your firearm. Most places do not have laws against loaning, but if the handgun is used for self defense, it may take quite a while to ever get it back, if you do get it back. You may not want it back after it has not been taken care of in an evidence room.
     
  15. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,722
    Location:
    Behind the Daley Curtain (IL)
    I would think the only way you could get into trouble is if she went looking for the guy with the intent of shooting him. Probably not going to happen, and if it did they'd have to prove that you knew she planned to do that. If it's a straight up self-defense shoot, they'd have a hard time making any charge stick to you. An overzealous prosecutor might file it, but you should be able to beat it pretty easily.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I don't even look like a lawyer. I've never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
     
  16. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,691
    Location:
    Stanwood, WA
    In Pennsylvania, FTF sales/transfers are required to go through an FFL. If she is legal to possess a handgun, I would see no difference in loaning her the gun vice selling her the gun. Either way, you are giving that gun up for possession by her and unless you had reasonable knowledge that she was illegal to possess the gun or had reasonable knowledgse that she intened to use the gun illegally, I wouldn't see a problem, but IMNAL.
     
  17. RobNDenver

    RobNDenver Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    275
    First, please have your friend register with PA Statewide Victim Notification so that she will know when and what is happening with the case. It is a free service from the Pennsylvania Council on Crime and Delinquency that gives victims and witnesses great comfort. http://www.pccd.state.pa.us/pccd/cwp/view.asp?a=1430&q=573975

    Second, make certain that the District Attorney's Victim Services Section is aware that your friend is apprehensive about the suspect in the community, and find out if there are restrictions in his release on bail regarding proximity to witnesses. Usually there is a boilerplate prohibition about approaching witnesses or victims in every release on bail. If this defendant has not been ordered to refrain from contacting or approaching the victim, ask the Victim Services folks to seek a bail modification hearing and get that in the conditions of release. There is a list of counties that have Victim Assistance programs in the PCCD web page referenced in the previous paragraph.

    Third, have a talk with the local police, (unless you are in Phila, where they just are too busy to talk to ordinary citizens). If your friend is in a borough or township with a small police department they can offer helpful suggestions and keep an eye out, when they are not otherwise occupied.

    Another poster suggested that you take your friend to the range and I think that is a very important element of self-protection. Do your best to teach drawing, firing from cover, and some simple malfunction drills in addition to marksmanship.

    PA's CHL process says that it takes up to 45 days. I didn't see any provisions for emergency issue, but if there is a pressing need, my guess is that the local police or sheriff's office could nudge the process for obtaining a CHL along ahead of the stated time frame.

    You will note that I said nothing about the transfer between the two of you. I would suggest that you get your advice from a knowledgable PA resident, certainly someone from the PA FOA ought to be able to give you the detailed scoop you need to legally transfer a pistol either temporarily or permanently.

    Good luck. . . Hopefully the time to sentencing will fly by without incident. Good on you for helping your friend.
     
  18. cambeul41

    cambeul41 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,186
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan
    "Ratted out"? Is that the correct term? I would not use it for an otherwise innocent person.
     
  19. bigjohnson

    bigjohnson Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    In PA, the transfer of a handgun between two non-dealers is illegal. The gun must be transferred through an FFL.
     
  20. bja5006

    bja5006 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pennsyltucky
    cambeul41: he drove a stolen police car (drunk, and with a K9 in the back) to her apartment and parked it outside. maybe it was more of a "he did it" type of thing, but innocent he was not.

    and bigjohnson, i wasnt considering selling it to her, merely loaning it to her. i would sell it the legal way.

    thanks for all the replies though!!
     
  21. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    11,717
    Location:
    Johnson City, TN
    Instead of lending it, give it to her as a gift and transfer it legally, provided there is time, i.e., PA uses NICS and does not have a waiting period.
     
  22. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,691
    Location:
    Stanwood, WA
    If he did transfer it to her as a gift, in PA it would have to go through and FFL.
     
  23. blutarsky

    blutarsky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    214
    Location:
    TX
    i think instead of loaning a gun, i'd be more likely to loan her money to buy one herself. after all, if you loan her the gun and if she is forced to use it, you'll be out the cost of the gun plus the cost of any legal hassle you'll be entangled in.

    however, if she truly wants to get a gun on her own but is merely cash-poor and can't afford it now, i'd offer to loan her the cash as well as assistance in taking her to a good gunshop and offering any tips or suggestions i might have, but otherwise having her be in charge of the entire choice and sale of the firearm herself.

    if she is unwilling to pay for it herself in the long-run with the help of such a generous offer, then i think that would speak volumes about her own commitment the problem.
     
  24. mmike87

    mmike87 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    911
    Location:
    Charlottesville, VA
    There ain't no way I'd get involved by loaning her a firearm.

    Make sure she gets it on record with the police that she's concerned for her safety. That way if something does happen, and she protects herself (by any means) she at least tried to go thought the police first.
     
  25. Schofield3

    Schofield3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    New Mexico
    If I were faced with this issue I would be very hesitant to loan out any of my firearms. How close of a relationship do you have with this lady? Could you bare the thought if something did happen to her and you knew you could’ve prevented it? Would she be causing herself more harm with a firearm than without? I would distance myself from the issue….imo
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice