Arrested by ignorant LEO for CCW out of state

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What I tell my guys: do NOT assume that the po-po know the law.
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Does anybody else find it incredibly disturbing that we have lawyers reminding us that not even the police are aware of the laws that they attempt to enforce? When somebody employed full time to enforce the laws isn't able to fully comprehend the written law how in the pooh nanny are regular citizens supposed to?
 
" ... When traveling, go to the state's web site and print out their list of recognized CCW permits ... "

Yeah but if a policeman is unaware of those laws, he is UNLIKELY to take the word of someone he THINKS is breaking the law.

After all, someone could download the whole thing into an editor and start making up their own laws ("see officer? it says so right here that out of state CCW license holders are alowed to enter schools, courthouses & government buildings with their firearms" "oh, okay. thank you for telling me that. i wasnt aware of that law"). :rolleyes:
 
"If you are arrested and it is for a crime which does not exist (ie you had an out of state permit with reciprocity) call your local bar association and ask for a civil rights lawyer recommendation. You have just won the lawsuit lottery."

Not likely. For starters, the governemental entity is probably immune to such a lawsuit to some degree if its action were due to a mistake, rather than intentional. Also, what are your damages? Again, there's no punitives without intention.
 
Update

I read some where here that you would fail in suing the LEO agency as a whole but that by issuing a writ of construction to the officer you could bypass the good faith laws protecting him and sue the officer personally, because in fact he broke the law by arresting you without crime. Like a judge told me once “ignorance is not above the law.â€

Here's the thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=36552 but after reading it again, I would look long and deep into seeking compensation on a wrongful arrest matter.
 
Lots of thought going into a question that was posed as a hypothetical. As I stated before, I don't see this issue as a serious concern. The prepared gun-packer, even in the extremely unlikely event of a wrongful arrest, has several different avenues of redress. And statements such as this:
Yeah but if a policeman is unaware of those laws, he is UNLIKELY to take the word of someone he THINKS is breaking the law.
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denigrate the entire law enforcement profession, indicating once again a willingness on the part of some High Roaders to seize every opportunity to espouse the belief that there are just a lot of stupid LEOs roaming around out there. Come on folks, don't you think most officers, if a law or regulation was in doubt, have the mental acumen to put a call in to a supervisor or their department's office?
I've been hassled by police several times when I have done absolutely nothing wrong. And then there was the one time where I did something wrong but they thought I had done something else wrong that I didn't actually do.
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Dude, just WHERE do you live? I'd have to say it's entirely possible that you were just hanging out at the wrong place at the wrong time ....
 
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I have lived in texas with an Arizona Permit for 3 years now. Texas REciprocity is established by the Texas DPS and is not statutory. I have asked many cops that I shoot with what I should do if I get pulled over by someon who doesnt know about reciprocity. They said I should have them contact DPS to straighten it out. No cop can be expected to know every law. Hell Judges and DA's cant be expected to know them all. That is why the stuff is written down.
 
I was in asking for a CPL renewal kit the other day. The Sheriff says to me "what's that?" l told him Concealed Pistol License which is what it is officially called in this state. At first he acts like I am speaking Chinese or something then he informs me "it's called a CCW permit" like I am an idiot.

I allowed him to keep his disillusion and got my application kit and right on the front of the envelope in big black bold letters that you can read from 100 yards away what does it say? Yup, MICHIGAN CONCEALED PISTOL LICENSE. :D
 
Alan Fud:
Yeah but if a policeman is unaware of those laws, he is UNLIKELY to take the word of someone he THINKS is breaking the law.
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That's why I don't ask him to believe me; I carry a copy of the reciprocity agreement. The signed agreement; if he doesn't want to believe that, he has to accuse me of forging the Attorney General's signature (in this case, I'm referring to Ohio/Oklahoma).


Jeeper:
No cop can be expected to know every law. Hell Judges and DA's cant be expected to know them all. That is why the stuff is written down.
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But we sure as hell are!
 
As long as the cop is acting in good faith your lawsuit will get nowhere especially in GA. Most if not all of these “civil suits†will fall under the Federal Courts in what is called a title 18 hearing.

As long as the cop reasonably believed that he or she held it to be illegal and can articulate as much in court the DA and the Judge will not even flutter an eye towards the cop for his or her mistake.

All here that must think that every lawyer and every Judge out there knows every law ever written and its correct application to a particular case is smoking crack.

Why do you think judges have enormous libraries and clerks to look stuff up, why do you think that judges sometimes take time before handing down a ruling, why do you think lawyers take weeks and months to prepare a case for trial?

And here we are the cops, out on the roadside, no library, no clerks and certainly no time to take weeks and months to prepare for an arrest or certain situation.

We have to make snap decisions and be right within a reasonable belief in seconds and minutes not weeks and months like lawyers and courts.

The courts have always given cops leeway for such shortcomings because we are human and if they cannot know all the law they unquestionably cannot expect us to know all laws either.

This notion that cops are just plain stupid is making everyone no friends in the LEO community, you (all of you, evidentially) automatically assume that every cop is stupid, wonder why many cops automatically assume that everyone who wants to carry a gun is a potential threat, up to criminal activity and questions your need?

Maybe it has to do with a great number of cops from many areas of this county who read boards such as this one and the very demeaning stuff like this.

I’m a member of three LEO only boards and I can think of at least 2 really big threads which circled around a post from here and one from The Firing Line where we spent weeks discussing the “substance†of each post.

You made a lot of enemies I can report back to you, even with several cops such as myself and one or two other cops who reported that they were members from here and TFL trying our very best to defend you all, but idiotic posts such with inflammatory titles such as this one sure don’t give us much to work with.


Thanks for “taking The High Road fella’sâ€â€¦


TFW
 
I really get annoyed by those on the forum that constantly bash police and paint us all with a broad brush. Especially those who assume they know the law better and cops are just basically stupid. Well, I will be the first to admit that out of 14,000 agencies nationwide there are some dumb officers. This goes for ALL career fields including doctors and lawyers. I have been in law enforcement for over 13 years, have a Masters degree in Psychology and I continually have to update myself on the law. Every State's Penal Code (Criminal Code) is a living document that changes frequently based on higher court decisions. It is impossible for every officer in every jurisdiction to know every law all the time. HOWEVER, there is no excuse for them not to research the law and give a citizen an educated answer as to the definition and application of the law. All laws are not applied in the same manner in every jurisdiction, i.e. some prosecutors will not take certain cases even though the meet the written definition of culpability etc...

And for those conspiracy theorists, suprisingly most police officers support the Second Amendment and a citizen's right to carry! Although some think every contact with an LEO is Harrassment, let me say, "get a life!" LEO's have the right to speak with anyone at anytime for anything. Why would you assume the Constitution applies to you and not the officer as well. Police are human and make mistakes just like you. I don't care what you do for a living, if you can say that you have made the right choice in the way you do your job ALL of the time, you are either dillusional or a liar!

My suggestion to those who are law-abiding citizens who value their right to carry is:

1. read the laws applicable for the area you are in or traveling to
2. When in doubt ask. Make a phone call to the agency or DA's office in that jurisdiction.
3. Don't break the law. (This is the best way to avoid police)
4. Use your common sense, be polite and things will go well. (this should be applied to everyone you deal with, cop or not.)
5. Don't assume you're right until you have done solid research. Believe it or not, not everything on the net is true.

....For those of you with "criminal" intent:

1. Stop screwing it up for those of us who aren't criminals!!! :cuss:
 
In order for an officer to arrest you doesn't he have to be able to site the particular law you've broken? If so, wouldn't he have to know the particular statute in order to write it on the paperwork?

I don't imagine that even the most ignorant of officers would actually arrest you for CCWing with an out of state permit ... you might be "detained" for a bit, but unless you start actively "resisting" I doubt you're going to be arrested.

I understand how several of the LEOs who have posted here could take offense to this thread, but I think there is a legitimate question of "what is the proper course of action when being detained (and possibly arrested) by an ignorant officer?"


Go re-read this old thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=83630

It really shows the proper way to handle an officer who is mistaken about the law ... there's no need to assume he's being a prick or an anti-gun JBT (unless he says something stupid like "I don't care what the law says, you civilians shouldn't be carrying guns" and then arrests you ... that's not likely to happen even with an anti-gun JBT) he's just trying to do his job and sometimes he'll do it wrong. As long as his mistakes are not life threatening, nor done out of malice I think we have to cut the officer a little slack.

I mean, when some kid at McDonalds screws up my order, I don't automatically assume its some sort of grand conspiracy, nor that his one mistake means all of McDonalds employees are "out to get me".
 
I think maybe I should add an adendum to my post. It should have "depending on the officer's attitude" tacked on...

An officer stopping me, finding me carrying with an out of state permit, and calling in to check it's vlaidity (both that the permit is legit, and that it's honoured in his state/locality) is fine. All that's "required" for me to just shut up and cope is a bit of civility: "Sir, you'll have to wait here while I verify this. And I'll need to secure your weapon" followed by, after everything's verified copesetic: "Sorry for the trouble sir". And I REALLY don't think that's asking too much...

However, there are other attitudes out there. Like the one lady cop in Wisconsin, talking about CCW. Here statement of "if I find somone who has a permit, I'm proning 'em out until backup arrives!". She would likely be looking at a minimum of a serious talk from her chief...

Does that make more sense? I don't expect cops to be perfect, but I do expect them to be reasonable and polite until I've shown myself to BE a criminal. Most are...
 
Does anybody else find it incredibly disturbing that we have lawyers reminding us that not even the police are aware of the laws that they attempt to enforce? When somebody employed full time to enforce the laws isn't able to fully comprehend the written law how in the pooh nanny are regular citizens supposed to?
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Actually, what this means is that the officer in question does not enforce that law very often, if at all. I can give you a pretty good run-down on stuff that I do on a regular basis, and on the high-points of the rest of the Ohio Revised Code, but if you ask me to name the elements of some offense that I don't charge very often, I'd have to look it up.

1. Officers are indeed required to write out the charge...so a big clue that you're not doing something illicit would come when he cannot find the text that covers the action he observed you performing.

2. Judges and lawyers will most certainly be lookng at the fact set at both arraignment and pre-trial, and it is in the State's best interest to cut an innocent man loose at the earliest opportunity. Prosecutors have been known to drop charges at arraignment.

3. lawsuits for false arrest can indeed go places, and will indeed yield up rewards. I've been a party to two of 'em now, both of them pure BS, and both of them yielding money to the plaintiffs. I cannot imagine a lawsuit where the plaintiff was arrested for a fact pattern not fitting the statute not resulting in a substantial settlement or jury award. The officer himself might not be liable out-of-pocket, but the department sure would be.

4. I concur with what a few have said before...carry the relevent text of the law with you if you are engaged in an activity that you think falls outside the scope of the 'norm' (carrying on a non-resident permit, for example). Do what the officer says. Be polite. Point out to him (politely) where he is incorrect when you have an opportunity, but don't try the case on the roadside. If worse comes to worse, go along for the ride secure in the knowledge that 1. you'll be getting out in short order and 2. you will substantially enlarge your gun collection at the expense of the jurisdiction in question, when all is said and done.

Mike
 
I am saddened whenever we have threads bringing in LE matters, to see the ''inevitable'' cop bashing. It is so darned predictable. I applaud Mike Coronach and TFW as two examples of LE guys who respond to flack with great restraint, there are others too ... being I am sure sorely tempted to do some ''common citizen bashing''!!!!

Some folks have, I'll admit, had bad or less than ideal experiences ... but usually we here, the readers, will probably never know all the ins and outs and so be able to judge cases impartially. Plus - even if we do wish to have a moan about LE - in a great many cases it can be done IMO much more politely and with subtlety.

Some bashing is so transparent as to be all but seeming directed at our LE members here. So I would ask that when and if people do want to ''bash'' they make it civil, and more a commentary on what they perceive as problems with the ''system'' as against direct slurs toward our LE members.... which is regretably how it often comes over.

Personally, I am more than glad we have LE guys here - with them and sometimes those like El T with legal knowledge - we get some great feedback and info. I would miss that if they decided to hightail it outa here.

We know and I think the LE here would admit - there are inevitably bad apples in every barrel - but to be fair .. let's remember there's a ''citizen barrel'' too and not just the LE one. Bad apples are everywhere! :)
 
TallPine, I must respectfully disagree. I've been hassled by police several times when I have done absolutely nothing wrong.
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I'm 43. Been driving since I was 16. At 16 I lived in Ohio. Then West Germany. Then Ohio again. Then Oklahoma. Then Hawaii. Then a whole bunch of different places in Oklahoma. I've never been pulled over by the cops in my life. I'm not saying I only got a warning or I've never had a ticket. I've never been pulled over period.

Now I did have a problem with a deputy sheriff one day on my dirt road when I was out walking but there was no automobile involved!

Gregg
 
I think part of the problem (here, and in other threads) is a bit of oversensitivity at times. The title of this thread can serve as a good example: "arrested by ignorant LEO". "Ignorant" does have some ngative connotations to it, and is usually used here and on other boards in such a fashion. However, if a LEO doesn't know the actual law, they technically ARE ignorant of it...

At the same time, I've seen (and shaken my head) over some of the "civilian" reactions to some of our LEOs. "JBT" and similar terms get thrown around WAY too often, and often undeservedly. Officer friendly stopped you, and insited on securing your CCW for the duration of the stop? "Oh my gods... thug with a badge!!!!". This doesn't help us at all: OF was just doing his job. Let's not be name calling on that...

On another thread, we have the flip side: cops beat the snot out of a convicted drug dealer, and it seems some of our LEOs want to defend their actions. Again: this doesn't help any of us at all...

In any interaction with a LEO, I try to be as polite as they'll let me. When I get one screaming at me at 3:30 in the morning that "REG TAGS DON'T JUST FALL OFF!!!!", I'm gonna call "goon with a badge" on him...
 
Obey the law and you're safe? Not in my experience.

As a matter of fact, my absolutely worst, creepiest, frightening, evil, bad LEO experiences happened when I was being particularly careful to obey the law and got accosted by badge-bullies anyway. The one time I was lawfully arrested, the policeman was very nice, aside from running every red light on the way to the jail at high speed with no flashers on and not allowing me a seat belt.

I think there's a selection effect, here. If yer always careful to obey the law, the honest, decent, informed, intelligent cops will prolly leave you alone. That leaves the bullies, who see a lone weird person and go harass him.
I think that's why lots of honest folks hate cops; they've only met the kind of cop who will mess with an obviously honest person, just for said person's perfectly legal minding-his-own-business behavior not corresponding to some weird idea in said cop's mind.

What is so sacred about cops anyway? They are traditionally not even supposed to EXIST in English-speaking countries!

They are Un-English, they are Un-American, they are completely irregular!

They are, in fact, FRENCH!!!

(Apologies to Sam Clemens)
 
bluecard said:
I really get annoyed by those on the forum that constantly bash police and paint us all with a broad brush. Especially those who assume they know the law better and cops are just basically stupid. Well, I will be the first to admit that out of 14,000 agencies nationwide there are some dumb officers. This goes for ALL career fields including doctors and lawyers.
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If doctors and lawyers could legally threaten me with violence, I'd be equally concerned about their ignorance.

It's bad enough if a cop doesn't know the law regarding concealed or open carry, but what makes it intolerable is that they think there's a law at all. Not only are they ignorant of State law, they're ignorant of the U.S. Constitution and often their State's Constitution.
 
I think that's why lots of honest folks hate cops; they've only met the kind of cop who will mess with an obviously honest person, just for said person's perfectly legal minding-his-own-business behavior not corresponding to some weird idea in said cop's mind.
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Huh?! Obviously, I don't get around the country enough ... having traveled in only about 43 of our 50 states ... Tell me, please, where "that kind of cop" is frequently found, so I can avoid those areas? (Since in my 40-plus years on this planet, I've never been been "messed with" while engaging in "perfectly legal minding-my-own-business behavavior ...")
 
Ok I have been messed with while perfectly legal.

Pulled over for such things as Improper radius of a turn and not signalling far enough in advance of a corner.
I like my friends who are cops, but hearing them bragging about getting "playtime" with college kids who do not get out of a car fast enough. Or with a woman driver who needs to get patted down on a routine traffic stop, I get pissed.
I understand a lot of cops are good guys my friends are decent people until it seems they slip that uniform on.
I am heading to court to sue a local PD for malicious damage to property with my nephew who had MY two Good Shotguns. a 12 and a 20 rklt matched pair of Superposed that he had just shot a sporting clays match with. Both guns where near pristine when they were taken from him on a "routine traffic stop" in that city. They claimed they had to sieze the guns when he said they were in the trunk, and that they belonged to his uncle to make sure they were not stolen. Even though the luggage cases had my name (same last name as him) engraved on the medallions. Even though he was over 21 not drunk, no criminal record and had the guns locked in the trunk,
When I got them back both had bent barrels. sprung ribs and rust everywhere. the barrels were so bent that the luggage cases would not close when I went to claim them from the police.
I have been helped buy police and I have helped police. I have had good experiances and I have had crappy experiences.

I used to have a big mustache and a pony tail. I was pulled over all the time, just getting a hair cut has reduced the number of times i get pulled over by 80%. When I had long hair if I drove my BMW or my Vette. I would get pulled over maybe one trip in two.

I understand that cops and LEOs hate being painted with a broad brush, I understand that you put your life on the line every day for us. But I also know that there are guys on your force who push the limits and you do not speak up. I know you know guys on your force who may trade a Date instead of a DWI to an attractive younger girl. Or offer a ride home to a well to do person instead of a ticket knowing that a reward might fall out of that persons pocket.

Am I wrong?

I am a law abiding business owning citizen and I am proud to be american.

but I bet there are more like me that not like me .
 
The courts have always given cops leeway for such shortcomings because we are human and if they cannot know all the law they unquestionably cannot expect us to know all laws either.
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With all due respect, and no offense intended towards anyone ...

do you think that the courts give equal leeway to a citizen for "not knowing the law" ...? Eh ???? ;)

If cops cannot be epected to know all the laws (and considering the current state of affairs, that is a reasonable assumption) how can citizens be expected to know all the laws either?

Just food for thought ...
 
TallPine,

I'm glad that you haven't had the unpleasant experience of being pulled over for looking under 30 and driving late at night in a small town.

Not all small towns are that way. Not all police in small towns act that way.

There are some and I had the unplesant experience of crossing pats whit a couple when I was younger.

Being polite and courteous to the officers didn't matter. In one case I was ticked to a speed considearbly higher than I was driving. I was within 5 miles of the speed limit, but violating it a tiny bit.

On another occasion I was pulled over for going 14 miles over the speed limit when I know I was not speeding because I was being careful in that area due to past experiences.

I was extremely polite. The officer was not. He seems very disappointed that I haddn't been drinking, and didn't have anything in the car to arrest me over. I even let him look in my book bag, though he had no legal right to demand that I allow him to do so.

He was still looking for something to nail me for when I politely asked him how he clocked me for speeding. Despite looking all over the bottom of the inside of my car, he haddn't noticed my radar detector on my visor.

It had never gone off, and it was capable of detecting all forms of radar that were legall approved for use in the area.

I pointed it out to him. He got a really surprised look on his face, muttered something about slowing down, and clumsily turned around and walked back to his car.

I waited a few minutes to make sure he wasn't comming back, and then pulled out and left.

I never got bothered by the police from that state police barracks again.

I was raised to respect law enforcement, and I still do. I just don't respect a select few individuals who happen to be in law enforcement and have earned my disrespect despite being in law enforcement.
 
Tallpine,

With all due respect, and no offense intended towards anyone ...

do you think that the courts give equal leeway to a citizen for "not knowing the law" ...? Eh ????

If cops cannot be epected to know all the laws (and considering the current state of affairs, that is a reasonable assumption) how can citizens be expected to know all the laws either?

Just food for thought ...
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You hit (one of) my feelings right on the head. Others have enumerated various additional irritants, but I will attempt to restrain myself.

If Joe Blow is expected to know chapter and verse, I don't find any problem with holding Joe LEO to that and a higher standard. Grrrr

And, on another subject (sorry) now that I am far beyond "legal age" I am less thankful of LEO's "protecting my life" (haha) and more concerned about the State's various actions focused on limiting or removing my ability to do so.


BB62
 
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