arsenal saiga
- Thread starter GeneH
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Rail Driver
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One of the "advantages" of the AGL21 over other AK variants is that you get to pay someone else a very large amount of money to convert a $300 saiga for you (that you can do for $100-300+ depending on the parts you choose).
One actual advantage of the Saiga over other variants is that the Saiga comes from the Izhmash factory, so russians make them. The Russian AK variants have been some of the best I've ever fired, and the Saiga is no exception.
You run very little risk of getting a new saiga with poorly fitted parts, malfunctions, or canted sights compared to some other AK variants (romanian guns, anything built by century).
Also, the saigas don't look like they were assembled using rocks as tools like my romanian draco mini did when it got to me.
One actual advantage of the Saiga over other variants is that the Saiga comes from the Izhmash factory, so russians make them. The Russian AK variants have been some of the best I've ever fired, and the Saiga is no exception.
You run very little risk of getting a new saiga with poorly fitted parts, malfunctions, or canted sights compared to some other AK variants (romanian guns, anything built by century).
Also, the saigas don't look like they were assembled using rocks as tools like my romanian draco mini did when it got to me.
JustinJ
Member
Quality.
Z-Michigan
Member
Doing a merely functional Saiga conversion requires only $100-150 in parts, but converting one to look exactly like an SGL-21 requires $300+ and some tools that most people don't have at home. It depends a lot on whether you just want a quality AK pattern rifle, or you want something that looks exactly like an AK-100 series (which is almost the same as an AK-47).
The SGL-21 is pricey for what it is, but it's the best deal when looking apples to apples at top quality, new, full AKM pattern rifles.
InkEd
Member
The advantages of the SGL-21 is that you are getting the closest thing possible to a brand new mil-spec Russian AKM in the original 7.62 cartridge. (The smaller AK-74 round is the standard issue for troops though.) It is a completely brand new gun rather than a hodge podge of new and used surplus parts. The fit and finish are excellent. The Arsenal made parts used to make it legally compliant are made to the exact specs as the Bulgarian parts which are considered to be the best by many AK fans. The workmanship that is done to return the rifle to it's proper form is top notch.
The disadvantages are that it usually comes with only the 5rd hunting magazine and they are little more expensive than other AKs. However, IMHO there are very few conversions done by other companies (and especially by people at home) that are done nearly as well. My only other "complaint" is the standard buttstock's metal plate is slippery and the standard grip is rather thin in my hand. (Those issues aren't specific to the SGL-21 though.)
FWIW the only "better" AK you buy is the Arsenal AKs with a machined Bulgarian receiver. (Yet, I've handled both and don't think the difference is worth the money.)
Buy one and you will be very pleased and surprised between the differences in quality amongst the AK market. Lastly, I consider the polymer furniture to be an advantage to the wood furniture. It's more durable, lighter weight and easier to clean. Besides even the best AKs with wood furniture aren't exactly equipped with fine hand-sanded American Walnut or finely polished Brazilian Rosewood.
The disadvantages are that it usually comes with only the 5rd hunting magazine and they are little more expensive than other AKs. However, IMHO there are very few conversions done by other companies (and especially by people at home) that are done nearly as well. My only other "complaint" is the standard buttstock's metal plate is slippery and the standard grip is rather thin in my hand. (Those issues aren't specific to the SGL-21 though.)
FWIW the only "better" AK you buy is the Arsenal AKs with a machined Bulgarian receiver. (Yet, I've handled both and don't think the difference is worth the money.)
Buy one and you will be very pleased and surprised between the differences in quality amongst the AK market. Lastly, I consider the polymer furniture to be an advantage to the wood furniture. It's more durable, lighter weight and easier to clean. Besides even the best AKs with wood furniture aren't exactly equipped with fine hand-sanded American Walnut or finely polished Brazilian Rosewood.
@JustinJ: I'm assuming you mean, quality is an advantage.
@all: thank you very much for the helpful replies. Seems that Arsenal's profit margin is possibly quite good.
After reading your replies, I have a couple of more questions:
The Saiga is an AKM?
Can any old rugged and cheap 30-round AK mag be used with the SGL21? Can the large drums be also used with it?
This is not a debate over accuracy vs the AR. I know the AR wins because design, tolerances, fit, etc. But I see that quite a few people also mention the poor sights on the AK. Besides scopes, are there aftermarket sights for the SGL21 that would make accuracy better?
Thank you all again,
Gene
@all: thank you very much for the helpful replies. Seems that Arsenal's profit margin is possibly quite good.
After reading your replies, I have a couple of more questions:
The Saiga is an AKM?
Can any old rugged and cheap 30-round AK mag be used with the SGL21? Can the large drums be also used with it?
This is not a debate over accuracy vs the AR. I know the AR wins because design, tolerances, fit, etc. But I see that quite a few people also mention the poor sights on the AK. Besides scopes, are there aftermarket sights for the SGL21 that would make accuracy better?
Thank you all again,
Gene
The Saiga's are basically a sporterized version of the AK-100 series of rifles. The SLG 21 most closely resembles the AK-103. It's about as close as you can legally get to the real thing. The AK-100 series uses stamped receivers like the AKM and most of the features of the AK-74 series like the 90 degree gas block and muzzle break. The SLG 21 should accept any standard AK-47/AKM magazines including the drum mags.
As far as I know all of Arsenal SLG models feature the same AK-74 style muzzle break unless it's one of the state compliant models that don't have any type of muzzle break/compensator at all. Take a look at Arsenals website to see what they have to offer.
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Z-Michigan
Member
We can fix that for you:
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/index.html
Gene: I have an SGL-21 and yes, it works with any AK-47 magazine that I've tried in it. It's very well made, the only thing I don't like is the odd 2-stage trigger they put in.
Not sure about the muzzle brake vs. compensator issue. Can you post links to the different models? All that I've seen have the AK-100 evolution of the AK-74 style brake, which is fairly effective.
dsxdarkman
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When you look inside of an arsenal everything is brand new. Nothing looks like it was re-done and put together by a bunch of different parts. All of the numbers on the parts are a match and you don't have to worry about canted sights, charging handle hang-ups or nothing like that. Arsenals run smoother than any cheap ak variant that i have shot and did I mention that they laser sight them in at the factory? Plus like people have said, they are made from the original ak factory
MD_Willington
Member
From what others have seen, you may want to check out an Arsenal Saiga first hand, though they work to get the job done, Arsenal seems to shove a buck bar under the front trunnion to rivet in the bullet guide, this in turn, if not done correctly can slightly deform the front receiver section. To do this correctly, the front trunnion needs to be pulled, I doubt Arsenal does this.
Thank you, MD.
Well, even though I don't get what you're saying, it doesn't sound good. Unfortunately, no Arsenal dealers anywhere near me...
I was about to... pull the trigger on the SGL21 off of K-var's web site... Don't know what to do now...
Well, even though I don't get what you're saying, it doesn't sound good. Unfortunately, no Arsenal dealers anywhere near me...
I was about to... pull the trigger on the SGL21 off of K-var's web site... Don't know what to do now...
JustinJ
Member
You don't have an FFL that will receive a gun from Kvar for you? Most gun shops will for a nominal fee.
InkEd
Member
You should check the price for them on the scottsdale gun club website. I got mine for $699 a few moths ago from them.
i bought an arsenal sgl 21 this year & love it. it & my m1a's are my favorite rifles. it light reliable & accurate. i wish i would have bought one years ago. i have not had one failure to feed, extract or fire since i bought it. probably between 1500 to 2000 rounds through it. i paid almost $800 for it with tax & it is worth every penny. i have used inexpensive forign steel 20rd & 30rd ak mags, tapco mags, a pro mag & the mag it came with all worked perfectly.
Shear_stress
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I think you're going to need to clarify. I have never heard of an Arsenal SGL with a damaged front trunnion due to the rivetting of the bullet guide.
MD_Willington
Member
The receiver may have a slight bow, the receiver is not damaged, the front trunnion is not damaged, the rifles still work correctly, just some folks have noticed a slight deviation in the receiver from being square/flat.
philpost
Member
Considering that a good price on a Saiga is $349, + shipping and FFL ($50 combined, at least), + $300 on parts to equal an AK100, really makes me feel that I got a fair and decent deal on my SGL20 at $699. It helped that my LGS had one on the wall and I got to handle it. I never "bought in" to any Arsenal hype; Before I ever knew that the was any Arsenal controversy, I held it, liked it, and it fit my budget.
Yes, I do. Can I just refuse to pick it up at local FFL (if I do figure out how to check for the problem MD_Willington is mentioning and if the rifle actually has the problem)?
The thing is I would have already paid K-var by credit card... How are problems like this solved? I've only done one internet purchase and picked up at FFL, but firearm had no problem.
Z-Michigan
Member
I've never looked at my SGL-21 for this issue. It sounds like a purely cosmetic issue. If it has any significance for use, please state it. I would just pick up the gun as you're supposed to, and if you find a serious receiver dent I would take it up with KVAR directly.
MD_Willington
Member
Z-Michigan said:
Yep - cosmetic, everything should work as MK designed it to work.
I got mine from there as well. I like being able to handle a gun before buying it. I have no problem hitting 6"x6" plates at 200 yards with steel sights with it, so I'm happy.
Granted I'm not what one would call an expert in this field, but I've never heard of this issue with Arsenal's having dented receivers due to sub par bullet guide installation techniques. Several Google searches also couldn't find anything either. Do you have any documented cases of this?
Gordon_Freeman
Member
I've never heard of the problem that MD_Willington talked about, and I have read a lot of reviews on the SGLs.
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