As I removed my blood-soaked hand from my face...

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Elkins45

Elkins45

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...I remember why blowback centerfire guns aren't exactly lefty friendly.

I took my 9mm faux-SBR to the range last week. I had some older boxes of Blaser aluminum cased 9mm and decided to shoot some of it. On about round three something obviously bad happened and I immediately knew it managed to involve my face. I reached up and touched my face and when I took my hand away it was wet with blood. I was the only person at the range so I just dropped the gun and ran to my car to grab my first aid kit. As I was opening the door I decided to look in the mirror and discovered to my relief that I was only bleeding from a couple of spots below my nose and on my cheek, although they were dripping quite a bit. Long story short I used up all of the fast food napkins in the glove box and finally managed to get the bleeding stopped. Neither of the cuts penetrated into my mouth or into the bone and as best as I can tell there's no metal imbedded in my face. I'm not all that fond of the idea of going to a doctor's office at the moment so I'm just watching and making sure nothing gets infected. I was wearing glasses and it could have been much worse.

Here's a view of the gun:

AR - 1.jpg

After I knocked the bolt open the front of the case remained in the chamber.

AR - 2.jpg

When I went to remove it I found it wasn't alone in there.

AR - 3.jpg

I'm not exactly pleased that the gun seemingly let me drop the hammer on an out-of-battery round. I know a normal locked breach AR will not ignite the primer unless the carrier is all the way forward. I guess the blowback bolt configuration of a 9mm version doesn't have that safety feature. I guess from now on I'm going to have to lower and tilt the gun to visually verify the bolt has closed before pulling the trigger.

My best guess is that the chamber was fouled just enough to keep the round from fully seating. It had been a while since I cleaned it. Either that or the universe just doesn't want me to shoot blowback ARs. This isn't the first time one has given me a scare, although the other time was most likely due to an insufficiently heavy buffer/spring combination.

Wear your safety glasses kids, and consider having a big ziplock bag full of gauze, quick clot, tape, tourniquet, and maybe even a set of chest seals. I have one, and although I just used old McDonalds napkins this time I can tell you it was VERY comforting to know that I had a bleeding control kit just a few feet away in those first few seconds when I wasn't sure how big the holes in my face were.
 
Glad you weren't hurt. I has a similar thing happen once when at the range and another shooter and I swapped guns. I shot his new 9mm pistol. About the 4th shot I felt stuff hit my face. A case blew out the side of an out of battery round. I don't know if it fired out of battery or just blew back a little and stopped.

I wasn't hurt but it did scratch my lens on my BRAND NEW GLASSES!!! I was not happy about that but darn glad I was wearing them. The owner of the gun apologized to the point of it being embarrassing but I didn't blame him. But I was through with shooting his gun. Stuff happens. Just be sure and wear your safety stuff.
 
Man, glad you’re ok, but even if it fired out of battery, I would think that the projectile would have been ejected from the case. When the primer goes off and pressure builds, the pressure escapes through the path of least resistance, which should be through the hole covered by the bullet.

In this case the path of least resistance was splitting the case. Something kept that projectile from being spit out of the case. I’d have the gun checked. Or maybe defective ammunition?
 
whughett said:
Now the 64 dollar question. Would a brass round behaved the same way. Might be a reason some PCC manufacturers don’t recommend aluminum cases. Would any one know for sure.
Click to expand...

The one time I put my slide fire stock on my 16" 9mm AR, back when it was legal, I had the same thing happen using aluminum ammo.
 
TonyAngel said:
Man, glad you’re ok, but even if it fired out of battery, I would think that the projectile would have been ejected from the case. When the primer goes off and pressure builds, the pressure escapes through the path of least resistance, which should be through the hole covered by the bullet.

In this case the path of least resistance was splitting the case. Something kept that projectile from being spit out of the case. I’d have the gun checked. Or maybe defective ammunition?
Click to expand...

All of the gas escaped through the side of the unsupported case. That was the path of least resistance.
 
Agreed, glad your ok, that case looks nasty. Did it blow the primer out any, I would think it would if out of battery. Good thing you had your eyes and ears on, I've had small bits of metal come off when hammering stuff and can do some damage to your body of hit. Funny how much the face can bleed even with a small cut sometimes.

keep the cut cleaned daily and new bandage, there's been a lot of mrsa this year.
 
That is very strange. Something caused the primer to ignite. I don't have your firearm, but you can test it and see if the hammer can push the firing pin forward before the bolt is in battery. Or, something was on the breech face and caused advanced primer ignition.

This is an Oerlikon action, it has been totally forgotten by the shooting community, even though it was the most popular 20mm machine cannon of WW2. Not only the US, British used the thing, so did the Germans and the Japanese. It was the fastest single barrel machine cannon of the period, (there were variants made by other companies), it was light, and it was advanced primer ignition. It also fired greased ammunition, something else forgotten by the shooting community.

Hhu9o4D.jpg

w0cxiVk.jpg

What I have read is that because it did not have a locked breech, ignition timing was critical. If the primer went off early, it was bad, and if primer ignition was slightly delayed, it was worse. Maybe you had something on the breech face between the breech face and primer which caused the primer to go off early.

It is a poor design which allows incidental contact with the primer before lockup or full battery. There are mechanisms that do. The M1 Garand, M14, M1a, M1 carbine, and Mini 14 all share a similar action design and all allow the firing pin to rebound off the primer prior to the lugs rotating into battery.

mNJCiLD.jpg

1ejo6oy.jpg

Combined, these mechanisms are the most in battery slamfiring, and out of battery slamfiring actions on the market. Some of this is due to the fact that there are lots of these actions being used, and a lot of it is due to shooters using ammunition with sensitive primers. Even with military spec primers, which were deliberately less sensitive to reduce slamfires, slamfires still happen (in battery and out) because primer sensitivity varies considerable within a lot.

Maybe blaser ammunition has primers that are inappropriate for your mechanism.
 
I am thankful that you were not injured more severely.
Had something similar happen years ago with a STEN Mark 2 that I was trying out with a friend.
It turned out that the previous under-powered round that had not driven the bolt back was actually a squib.
It had left a bullet in the barrel just ahead of the chamber, but I had simply cleared the casing.
I thought that it was just because of old surplus 9mm not up to full strength on some rounds.
The result was that the bolt drove the next round only partially into the chamber (open bolt firing) and the firing stud had fired the round out of battery.
Debris flew out the ejection port but no harm to gun, shooter, or bystanders fortunately.
I'm sure that in battle this was not that unusual an event, and that the large open feed-way was designed for the gas and fragments to be safely discharged.
In fact I recall handling STEN broken shell extraction pliers used to remove a partial casing still in the chamber.
It did reinforce the need to check for barrel obstructions after a dud or under-powered round though.
 
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The out of battery safety on a blowback AR is that the bolt is shaped so that the hammer can’t reach the pin until it’s about 80% of the way in battery. Far from a perfect solution.

The other thing I see is the bullet set back in the case. Blow back AR’s tend to be pretty violent feeders because of the heavy bolt and spring needed. I think it was a perfect storm here of the bullet being set back during feeding causing over pressure, being partially out of battery when fired, and the aluminum case.
 
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/aluminum-case-ammunition.701901/ I found this as well as numerous other threads about issues with aluminum cases in blowback actions. If you still have the section of the case with the bullet intact, wondering if you can section it and see if there is any galvanic reaction occurring between the bullet jacket and case wall. Dissimilar metals can cause this to happen, and I know aluminum is relatively reactive with other non-ferrous metals. Seems strange to me that the bullet didn't move out of the case at all, even in an out of battery situation.

If there is a reaction occurring, in a blowback action, it may have caused the bolt to partially open prior to breaking free of the resistance, and the high pressure gas followed the path of least resistance through the case wall.
 
someguy2800 said:
The out of battery safety on a blowback AR is that the bolt is shaped so that the hammer can’t reach the pin until it’s about 80% of the way in battery. Far from a perfect solution.

The other thing I see is the bullet set back in the case. Blow back AR’s tend to be pretty violent feeders because of the heavy bolt and spring needed. I think it was a perfect storm here of the bullet being set back during feeding causing over pressure, being partially out of battery when fired, and the aluminum case.
Click to expand...
The bullet wasn’t actually set back in the case. I drove it out from the muzzle with a rod and it was pushed back down into the case a bit before they both came out together. I’m still thinking the primary reason it didn’t fully seat was chamber fouling.

The primer was fully seated and it was a deliberate trigger pull, not a slam fire. Regardless, I don’t think I will be using this ammo with this gun again. I’ll shoot the rest of it thru something with a locked breech.
 
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Elkins45 said:
My best guess is that the chamber was fouled just enough to keep the round from fully seating. It had been a while since I cleaned it. Either that or the universe just doesn't want me to shoot blowback ARs. This isn't the first time one has given me a scare, although the other time was most likely due to an insufficiently heavy buffer/spring combination.
Click to expand...

S.O.P. in the Marine Corps was to clean your weapon as soon as possible after firing it. I learned that at 18. I have been following that procedure for sixty years since then. I always rather clean my firearm that clean blood off my face. Glad to read that the injuries were not sever.
 
Got picture of primer?

Not the same thing, but to show aluminum cases do not have a lot of safety margin:
Blazer Aluminum 9mm salvaged after the Incident looked ok, even though the sealed case had been wetted. Much the most of it would fire so I thought it would be ok for practice... and occasional misfire clearance practice. But my companion on the range noticed flash out the ejection port. I picked up some empties, many had split and one was badly burnt through. I stopped shooting. When I cleaned the gun I could see that there was a flame cut in the chamber. Gunsmith polished it and while it still shows, it does not affect extraction.
 
Random 8 said:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/aluminum-case-ammunition.701901/ I found this as well as numerous other threads about issues with aluminum cases in blowback actions. If you still have the section of the case with the bullet intact, wondering if you can section it and see if there is any galvanic reaction occurring between the bullet jacket and case wall. Dissimilar metals can cause this to happen, and I know aluminum is relatively reactive with other non-ferrous metals. Seems strange to me that the bullet didn't move out of the case at all, even in an out of battery situation.
Click to expand...

I was surprised that the bullet did not go out the barrel, maybe pressures dropped so rapidly that the bullet was not able engrave in the throat. Whatever happened to the bullet, it sure shows that the case is not strong. This is a foundational belief to those who claim that lubricated cases, that is oiled or greased cases "increase bolt thrust". Well they do, but not by much, and when the case carries load, the stress path goes through the case head, increasing the chance of a brass flaw rupturing in the most critical part of the case. These characters believe the case is strong and the action is weak, which is nonsense. The case is, in fact, very weak. Only the case head can hold pressure, but it still has to be supported, and the pressure holding part is right at the top of the primer hole. When more of the case head is exposed the sidewall will blow.

I thought this was an interesting cartridge. The designer made steel case heads, so insanely hot reloads could be fired. The top part is brass, and that screw joint between the steel case head and the threaded part to the brass upper section sure does not look like something that ought to be stretched.

yCkR7Cb.jpg
 
Elkins45 said:
...I remember why blowback centerfire guns aren't exactly lefty friendly.

I took my 9mm faux-SBR to the range last week. I had some older boxes of Blaser aluminum cased 9mm and decided to shoot some of it. On about round three something obviously bad happened and I immediately knew it managed to involve my face. I reached up and touched my face and when I took my hand away it was wet with blood. I was the only person at the range so I just dropped the gun and ran to my car to grab my first aid kit. As I was opening the door I decided to look in the mirror and discovered to my relief that I was only bleeding from a couple of spots below my nose and on my cheek, although they were dripping quite a bit. Long story short I used up all of the fast food napkins in the glove box and finally managed to get the bleeding stopped. Neither of the cuts penetrated into my mouth or into the bone and as best as I can tell there's no metal imbedded in my face. I'm not all that fond of the idea of going to a doctor's office at the moment so I'm just watching and making sure nothing gets infected. I was wearing glasses and it could have been much worse.

Here's a view of the gun:

View attachment 898666

After I knocked the bolt open the front of the case remained in the chamber.

View attachment 898667

When I went to remove it I found it wasn't alone in there.

View attachment 898668

I'm not exactly pleased that the gun seemingly let me drop the hammer on an out-of-battery round. I know a normal locked breach AR will not ignite the primer unless the carrier is all the way forward. I guess the blowback bolt configuration of a 9mm version doesn't have that safety feature. I guess from now on I'm going to have to lower and tilt the gun to visually verify the bolt has closed before pulling the trigger.

My best guess is that the chamber was fouled just enough to keep the round from fully seating. It had been a while since I cleaned it. Either that or the universe just doesn't want me to shoot blowback ARs. This isn't the first time one has given me a scare, although the other time was most likely due to an insufficiently heavy buffer/spring combination.

Wear your safety glasses kids, and consider having a big ziplock bag full of gauze, quick clot, tape, tourniquet, and maybe even a set of chest seals. I have one, and although I just used old McDonalds napkins this time I can tell you it was VERY comforting to know that I had a bleeding control kit just a few feet away in those first few seconds when I wasn't sure how big the holes in my face were.
Click to expand...
-------------------------------------------------
Did the bullet remain in the case, or was it driven back when you may have removed the case with a cleaning rod? It's hard to believe that it would remain in the case with that amount of pressure in the case. Perhaps the bore was rusted because it hadn't been cleaned for a while?
 
Picher said:
-------------------------------------------------
Did the bullet remain in the case, or was it driven back when you may have removed the case with a cleaning rod? It's hard to believe that it would remain in the case with that amount of pressure in the case. Perhaps the bore was rusted because it hadn't been cleaned for a while?
Click to expand...
It doesn’t seem to have engraved into the rifling much, but it did take a couple of whacks with a hammer to drive it out. It looks the way it does in the picture because it was driven back into the case.

The bore wasn’t rusted, and even if it was the previous rounds would have blown that out. I had fired a full magazine of another type of ammo before I started shooting the Blazer. The bore looks fine. I cleaned it after I removed the stuck bullet and it was what I would think of as normally dirty and not exceptionally filthy.
 
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