As requested by moderator hso: Video of NYC ESB shooting 8/24/2012

[paramedic70002]

It actually looks like the closest LEO changed his aiming point into the crowd for the last few shots!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWgrHwrlf8

Moderator note: The cbs version since the youtube is gone. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7419238n

 

[BADUNAME30]

Looks to me that he was covering his fellow Officer in the chance there was a
2nd shooter in the fleeing crowd.Or,maybe in his tunnel vision he perceived one. We'll never know.
As for the number of shots fired by the Police.If I'm not mistaken they are trained to continue firing until the threat is absolutely neutralized.

Also, how many of us have been in that fear/adrenalin situation enough times, or at all, to judge the actions of those that have.
You can claim all you want about how you will react if/when you come under fire. I'm sure your actual actions will in no way reflect your mindset.

I'd highly suggest that anyone quickly opinionated on these matters read everything
written by Massad Ayoob then rethink these situations and your personal mindset on them.

 

[labhound]

I think the closest cop was just moving to get the pole and planter between him and the guy with the gun. The other cop was moving and shooting with one hand. He already had his gun drawn when he approched the shooter. This is just an overall bad situation for the cops and public to be in. I think they handled it the best they could at a time when someone pulled a gun on them. Not a whole lot of time there to stop and think out the situation. As for the number of shots, hits and misses, I don't think many of us really know how good a shot we'd be with someone pointing a gun at us.

 

[BADUNAME30]

If i recall correctly. The statistic for a Police officer involved in a shooting is that even the most 'seasoned' veterans will only be on targer four out every 10 shots.

 

[Sapper771]

Also, how many of us have been in that fear/adrenalin situation enough times, or at all, to judge the actions of those that have.
You can claim all you want about how you will react if/when you come under fire. I'm sure your actual actions will in no way reflect your mindset.

Amen.

 

[rodregier]

NYPD has past year published "hit" ratio statistics available to discover...

 

[MachIVshooter]

Also, how many of us have been in that fear/adrenalin situation enough times, or at all, to judge the actions of those that have.
You can claim all you want about how you will react if/when you come under fire.

No excuses.

The man didn't even fire on the officers, and they discharged 16 rounds with reckless disregard for the innocents behind the perpetrator. I will absolutely judge them, and I hope the powers that be do the same. These two need to go to prison. Any of us would if we shot NINE innocent bystanders while "defending" ourselves; Why should they get a pass?

 

[Deanimator]

As for the number of shots, hits and misses, I don't think many of us really know how good a shot we'd be with someone pointing a gun at us.

I DO however have a pretty good idea of what would happen if _I_ shot that many innocent bystanders.

If I were LUCKY, I'd be eating out of... and living in dumpsters for the rest of my life.

I suspect that I'd be spending some time in prison first.

 

[Rail Driver]

I agree with those posting that the police officers that were doing the shooting should be held accountable for each round that hit something other than their target.

Police should be held to a HIGHER standard of accuracy precisely because they are in a line of work that requires them to use a firearm. It goes hand in hand with my belief that police should have more training than the average citizen who carries a firearm - certainly not less.

Citizens defending themselves are liable for every projectile they send downrange - If I were to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, as was mentioned before - I would certainly be liable in civil court, and would most likely be charged in criminal court as well. It should be no different for a supposedly highly trained police officer - If they are so highly trained, how in the &&&& did they hit 9 innocent bystanders? For that matter why were officers still firing after the suspect went down, and why were they firing at a non-active threat in any case?

I'm not one to bash police, but situations like this one stand out to people like a soldier standing up out of his foxhole on the front lines. It was, in my opinion, a series of stupid decisions by those officers, and it resulted in the shooting of several innocent people.

The video doesn't show enough, and the situation went down pretty quickly, but the suspect appeared to be cooperating - He didn't appear to reach for a firearm before he was fired upon, and didn't appear to be making any threatening gestures towards the officers. In fact, the video looked more like a mob execution than police taking down an active shooter.

 

[Sam1911]

but the suspect appeared to be cooperating - He didn't appear to reach for a firearm before he was fired upon, and didn't appear to be making any threatening gestures towards the officers. In fact, the video looked more like a mob execution than police taking down an active shooter.

You need to watch that VERY closely, again.

The suspect walks along the right side of the big planters. He notices the cops approaching and swings between two of the planters on his left -- WHILE DRAWING HIS GUN, and takes a step toward them holding his gun in his right hand pointed right at them.

They absolutely needed to fire. While we will never know if the shooter WOULD HAVE fired at them, that's irrelevant. He drew his gun, he was armed, and pointing at the cops. They were 100% cleared to fire.

Their accuracy was very unfortunate, and I'm sure every single shot they took will be analyzed by the investigators on the case.

However, they had no choice but to shoot.

 

[jbrown50]

One of the problems ironically looked to be those darned potted plants.

When Johnson pulled his gun both officer's view was initially blocked by one of the plants. Both officers had to react quickly by moving back and toward the street in an attempt to gain distance and use the cover of the plants. The second officer, trying to keep the first officer and the innocent bystanders out of his line of fire, moved laterally to the left in an attempt to isolate Johnson as much as possible. Unfortunately that hard plant pot behind Johnson resulted in a lot of riccochets. Some of the first officer's rounds probably missed or skirted Johnson because he was at a sideways angle and therefore a narrower target. If the first officer had moved to his left to get a better frontal shot he would have crossed into the second officer's line of fire.

Considering the circumstances and that Johnson forced their hand there's really nothing else those officers could have done differently. I think the reason that the first officer was walking so fast was that he was attempting to cut off Johnson and isolate him before he could get to the corner where more innocent bystanders were.

 

[Deanimator]

Their accuracy was very unfortunate, and I'm sure every single shot they took will be analyzed by the investigators on the case.

However, they had no choice but to shoot.

A justified shooting executed VERY badly.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Also, how many of us have been in that fear/adrenalin situation enough times, or at all, to judge the actions of those that have.
You can claim all you want about how you will react if/when you come under fire. I'm sure your actual actions will in no way reflect your mindset.

Whatever insight different resumes provide, I will say that I think that the officers involved, the NYPD and the city of New York are likely to be in for a rough ride with juries when the civil suits start coming in from the assorted people the officers accidentally shot.

 

[Trent]

I skipped straight to the bottom to PLEASE ask the mods not to lock this thread; instead just edit / remove posts which are not High Road.

There is a very serious discussion to be had here.

Now I'm going back up to read, thank you.

 

[Rail Driver]

You need to watch that VERY closely, again.

The suspect walks along the right side of the big planters. He notices the cops approaching and swings between two of the planters on his left -- WHILE DRAWING HIS GUN, and takes a step toward them holding his gun in his right hand pointed right at them.

They absolutely needed to fire. While we will never know if the shooter WOULD HAVE fired at them, that's irrelevant. He drew his gun, he was armed, and pointing at the cops. They were 100% cleared to fire.

Their accuracy was very unfortunate, and I'm sure every single shot they took will be analyzed by the investigators on the case.

However, they had no choice but to shoot.

I went back and watched the video several times. I see where he comes around the planters and notices the officer, but truthfully the resolution of the video is so poor that I simply can't tell if his hand is empty or not. It appears, to me, that his hand is up and in a submissive pose- It looked more to me like he put something into his briefcase before the shooting started, but I wasn't there and the video doesn't show clearly enough to tell.

If he did have a firearm in his hand, then I agree the police were justified to shoot --- HIM. Not 9 innocent bystanders. Their supreme LACK of accuracy, whether due to bad positioning, unclear lanes of shooting, or whatever, is more than just unfortunate, it's a tragedy and a crime. Now I'm not saying I could have done better or made better choices in this situation - I wasn't there, and I'm not a cop.

Police are sworn to serve and protect the innocent. They failed in this instance.

After the first shot that hit the man it looked like he put the hand that was supposedly pointing the gun at the officer over the wound he received. Either way, from the video it doesn't look good to me. If someone can produce a clearer video from a similar perspective, I'd be happy to revisit my opinion. The way it stands now, with this video, however, I am not convinced.

 

[Trent]

Ok I watched it a few time and read comments here (not on youtube, don't care).

#1 Holy crap that street was crowded.
#2 They almost had the drop on him - something made the dude turn. Judging by the guy who was on the bench that RAN, I would imagine it was something the police yelled.

Have to ask at that point if they could have tackled him from behind if they hadn't shouted whatever it was. (Freeze, get down on the ground, whatever). They had the drop on him.

#3 Why in the HELL would you fire a weapon one handed if you have two functional arms. (THAT one irritated me each time I watched it).

#4 Shooting + moving is DAMNED HARD TO DO. Anyone who has ever taken the time to TRY this will understand how spectacularly BAD of an idea shooting on the move with a handgun is. Your bullets will reach the bad guys the same speed. There was NO cover to be had short of a human body. So why move??????

#5 They continued firing until the bad guy went down. I can't really argue this point hard, but that implies they continued firing until they got a CNS hit (spine or head, probably both). That guy was limp when he dropped - that was not a "I was hit and I'm deciding to fall down", he was fully incapacitated.

#6 The cop closest tried to move behind cover while shooting PLACING the civilians that you could see leaving the bottom of the screen in to the line of fire.

The other cop was firing on the move ONE HANDED.

I'm pretty damn good with handguns, but I'm not going to do that even remotely reliable on my BEST day, even if I eat my wheaties that morning AND sleep in a holiday inn express.

#7 No audio, we can't tell what the guy said. Pointing a gun at cops = you're getting shot, regardless if there was any words spoken. Worse, he pointed a gun at them AND ADVANCED. That's an absolute guarantee you're getting shot.

I would have dropped the hammer on him too IF I had a clear line of fire. Otherwise I may have surrendered, or even ran.

Any hesitation on either decision could have been VERY bad. Their decision cycle was fixed from the onset and they dropped him without any hesitation whatsoever once they saw the gun.

At the risk of incurring a bad mark by the mods - I will say that new training procedures are in order to address THAT particular decision loop.

#8 rushing the guy wasn't an option. Suicidal. If you aren't starting at arms reach, against a gun pointed at you, rushing isn't going to work. NO disarm techniques are going to work if you can't reach a guy, period. As soon as the gun came in to play, and it's not close to you, your options are severely limited.

#9 Firing repeatedly in to bad guy in front of a crowd is a bad idea.

#10 final thoughts:

Authentic New York City photo. Girl with the pink bag and cell phone is the gunman.

You see a shot?



Would you even TAKE a shot?

Choose wisely, you are accountable for every round that leaves your weapon.

While they were put in a bad situation, this video shows a horrible execution and a LONG list of what NOT to do. Yes, I'm Monday night quarterbacking. But if it were someone with more experience, in practical competitions or training, this would have gone down a LOT differently.

If this were ANY of us, we'd be getting judged by a jury of 12 on 8 counts of attempted murder.

Keep that in mind.

 

[12131]

I don't know what you are looking at, but as he turned around looking at the cops, he pulled the pistol out from the bag and pointed at them, @ 0:07-0:08.

 

[Trent]

Yeah it's pretty clear he drew the pistol and advanced on the police, if you watch it full screen it's much easier to see.

 

[Coop45]

I'm glad that I wasn't one of those LEO's. Everyone here will forget this shooting long before the injured people and the LEO's will.

 

[8654Maine]

That video makes a more compelling case for the LEO's to shoot, no matter what. O/w, we'd be hearing about downed officers.

 

[BADUNAME30]

After watching this more i can't for certain tell if the Officer that backs between the planters even has a firearm drawn.
If he did have his firearm drawn, what did he do with it to free his hand for what looks like he's pulling his radio mic from his belt.

 

[BADUNAME30]

I'm glad that I wasn't one of those LEO's. Everyone here will forget this shooting long before the injured people and the LEO's will

Coop, don't you mean the Policemen..... won't.

 

[xXxplosive]

IMO.........it was said correctly here.....Justifiable shooting executed very badly....now open your wallet mayor Dumbberg and shut your mouth.

Phase II
Bring on the Lawyers.......

 

[Warp]

Justified shoot, for sure. There is absolutely no question whatsoever that they were justified in putting him down.

Now...their marksmanship in doing so...that is a different story.

 

[csa77]

if that was anyone else aside from a cop they would end up in jail for hitting bystanders ...i dont care what the reason the officers use, there is no excuse to endangering the life of innocent bystanders with the sort of reckless gunplay they they exhibited.
if you feel its acceptable for police to completely disregard a civilians right to life for the sake of killing the badguy, then i assume you would feel the same if it were any of us pulling our carry gun and we end up hitting afew people who were just "in the way"