assailant wearing armor

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In the wake of the Aurora shooting, I'd like to know if anyone's opinions have changed about the possibility of encountering an assailant who is wearing body armor. I've seen others ask questions about what to do or what gun to carry in the event of a situation like that, and they often get pooh-poohed. Now we have a good example of the awful possibilities - a deranged person with armor, helmet, gas mask, and "as many as four weapons."

So.... to boil it down, here are the short questions.

1. If you didn't feel that an armored assailant was a risk to plan for or worry about before the Aurora shooting, has your opinion changed?

2. If you feel it's a risk, what can the average citizen do for protection against it?

3. Do you think that the risk is increasing, or are more examples being publicized when they weren't before?


In this thread, let's try to leave out the "political fallout" and Brady stuff since we already have a thread on that. :)
 
For #2, carry a Tokarev or CZ52 in 7.62x25 with FMJ or a stacked magazine. Level 2 body armor? Not a problem. Of course, then you have the problem of overpenetration. My worry, though, is that the BATFE will one day reclassify this as an armor-piercing round and outlaw it.
 
A) highly unlikely... (though obviously possible). Statistically, the odds of me needing to shoot anyone, ever, are ridiculously low. The odds of needing to shoot someone in 2A body armor? virtually (though clearly not absolutely) zero. Still, I won't stop carrying just because my gun won't penetrate 2A body armor.
B) I added 'Mogadishu' drills to my training mix 14 years ago. That helmet's good for the top and sides. Doesn't do much for the FACE, however (side note: there's an odd psychological factor to looking someone in the face when you kill them.)
C) Ever been kicked by a horse? Soft armor will likely keep the bullet from penetrating; it may NOT substantially mitigate tranfer of kinetic energy. Multiple pistol bullets to the torso may not KILL him, but he's still going to have a hard time getting off the floor.
D) Does Colorado have the death penalty? This guy needs it.
 
I'd never heard of the "Mogadishu Drill." I found a definition on funtrivia.com.

"The failure drill, sometimes called the "Mogadishu Drill" or "Mozambique Drill", is a method of ensuring that a target stays down. The first two shots to the chest are easier and quicker to make than a head shot, and are likely to cause even an armored assailant to stumble. The final shot to the head is insurance... in case the first two to the body failed to drop the target. First developed in Mozambique by a Rhodesian mercenary named Mike Rousseau, the technique was perfected by GSG-9 during their 1977 airliner rescue in Mogadishu, previously discussed. It has now become common practice."

Interesting technique.
 
Going up against a rifle with your CCW is always going to be bad news.

1. If you didn't feel that an armored assailant was a risk to plan for or worry about before the Aurora shooting, has your opinion changed?

2. If you feel it's a risk, what can the average citizen do for protection against it?

3. Do you think that the risk is increasing, or are more examples being publicized when they weren't before?

1) No.
2) Not much.
3) I can only think of one example ever where a CCW got hits that might have taken down a criminal had said criminal not been wearing a vest. Can't recall the details, but I think it was a courthouse shooting of some sort in TX, same type situation with a rifle-armed/armored attacker, perp was hit COM by a .45, and didn't go down. CCW was killed, if I remember correctly.

You can't plan your life around, or live in fear of every one-in-a-billion possibility of anything that could possibly happen. A guy with an AR in a crowded public place has the advantage. Nothing you can stuff in your pants is going to change that.
 
1. I still don't think its a risk to plan for, for the reasons that A) body armored assailants are incredibly rare and B) with a handgun, I'm not going to be likely to get too many armor-piercing rounds without very specific ammo selection. I'd rather plan around the 99%+ chance that I won't have an armored assailant.

2. Honestly, there are going to be very few loads that will be armor piercing that an average civilian will be able to carry. These loads, IMHO, are not as good as a standard JHP for the other 99% of situations.

3. I don't see the risk increasing, you'll get one example here or there, but overall it's not very often you'll have an armored assailant.
 
I avoid places like movie theaters.

If a criminal is wearing a vest, and I have confront him/her (I'd rather run like Forrest Gump), I aim at the pelvis/ hip area with plenty of big blood vessels.

I'm certain that there are plenty more vests out there than twenty years ago. I'm not sure if the laws changed, but I had hard time to get my first custom vest. Now you can order anything on the Internet.

Anyways, avoid stupid places, stupid people and don't do stupid things.
 
Not really any change. We should already be precticing failure drills.

Just because someone uses body armor every once in a while doesn't mean it's often enough to make it part of your regular plan. And remember, in this case, no one got a shot at him anyway.
 
I hear more and more about criminals gearing up with Kevlar.

I will probably continue with my 9mm G26 for concealed carry. But, keeping an AR-15 ready for home defense makes more sense all the time.

Does anyone make a subcompact 5.7 pistol?
 
1 - No
2 - Not much
3 - Not materially

I don't think there's much you could do in that situation. It's dark and the room is full of smoke from gunfire and perhaps tear gas, people are stampeding everywhere in a mad rush to get out...even if you were ever in a spot to get a shot off there isn't going to be a good ending to the story.

Sometimes the bad guy wins...it's sad and tragic but it's the truth.
 
1. If you didn't feel that an armored assailant was a risk to plan for or worry about before the Aurora shooting, has your opinion changed?

No. Still infinitesimal.

2. If you feel it's a risk, what can the average citizen do for protection against it?

Could carry an AR pistol under a trench coat everywhere you go, but that isn't really practical. Just like taking a gas mask with you everywhere you go probably isn't practical. If heaven forbid there was some sort of mass shooter episode and I could tell he had heavy body armor, I would not even bother with my .380 or 9mm. I would try to run. I don't know if I buy the KE idea. If running wasn't an option, oh well, S.O.L. Either that or wait for him to reload and try to take him down. Not saying I would be brave enough to try that in real life, but a guy with a .380 versus a guy with body armor and rifles....what other choice is there? You are at a distinct disadvantage.

3. Do you think that the risk is increasing, or are more examples being publicized when they weren't before?

The risk is probably increasing, as more nut jobs are actually going out and buying body armor before committing these horrific acts, but it is still going from infinitesimal to slightly less infinitesimal.
 
1. No
2. Damn little
3. Maybe they are, it's hard to say

Overall in a situation like that you're sort of SOL unless you can get an in close shot to the face. I think my strategy in that situation would be move to cover, try and stay out of sight, and get out an exit as soon as I could without offering the BG an easy shot. In a worst cased scenario where I had to engage the BG I'd probably try and put multiple rounds COM as quickly as I could. It probably wouldn't stop the target but it might put them off their game long enough for me to get out an exit.
 
Perhaps it demonstrates the legislative folly in outlawing armor piercing pistol rounds, for the perceived benefit of law enforcement, which incidentally also protects people like this shooter from your typical CCW holder.


Guns work best as the equalizer in society, legislation that attempts to thwart their equalizing effect to favor one group results in such equalization being lost (for the law abiding).

Head shots sound good in games, or while shooting at the range, but while being shot at with your heart pounding and adrenaline racing they may prove a bit more difficult than you expect.




The guy was wearing body armor, head armor, used tear gas, and was armed with long guns.
A CCW holder is only going to have a pistol.
The laws say the person cannot even make the most of that pistol.





How commonly is body armor used by criminals?

More than you may realize. Rappers made it desirable to thugs.
While mass shooting nutjobs that plan attacks often obtain it beforehand.
For example quick google:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3004217.../t/police-binghamton-shooter-wore-body-armor/

Guy kills 13 people wearing body armor in mass shooting at government building.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-seal-beach-salon-shooting-with-six-dead.html

Guy in body armor goes in and shoots up a salon killing 6, wounds 3.


The Tyler Texas shooting comes to mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting


There is other examples.


Body armor use in organized home invasions is also very common.
Criminals use it for the same reason the SWAT team does when they plan to invade a house.
However most organized home invasions target other criminals like those that are known to sell drugs or upset someone else in the drug game they play around in.
But body armor and/or impersonating police is common.




The natural progression of projectiles and counters and counters to the counters has been ongoing since ancient times. Armor to protect, improved projectile to defeat it, etc
However legislation in this country prevents projectile improvement as armor continues to improve and get lighter and less expensive.
Inveitably this will decrease the equality an armed society is meant to create. And in fact benefits the offensive because much of the armor is unrealistic to wear in normal life or use defensively, and so becomes primarly useful for offensive short duration use.
So while improved projectiles would have an impact on all with a gun, improved armor primarily benefits the offensive parties.

Modern technology would allow for bullets that can both expand for increased effectiveness and penetrate armor. As well as others that work by flipping or destabilizing like seen with some of the PDW rounds.
Also mechanical bullets with moving parts made of hard materials like steel can be designed (though they would cost a couple dollars+ a round and would be a market limited by those willing to pay) that can penetrate and open up or deploy spikes/blades etc after penetration to increase wound channel.
Technology is there, but you can't make that kind of a bullet out of soft materials that easily bend because that will inhibit moving parts. So the law keeps people working within narrow confines of old projectile technology.
 
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The OP asked a reasonable set of questions and not about this specific incident.

I've trimmed what looked like posts focused on the incident instead of the questions as best I can.

If the thread doesn't stay focused on the questions then it will simply drift into closure.
 
1. If you didn't feel that an armored assailant was a risk to plan for or worry about before the Aurora shooting, has your opinion changed?

2. If you feel it's a risk, what can the average citizen do for protection against it?

3. Do you think that the risk is increasing, or are more examples being publicized when they weren't before?

1. No its always been a concern.
2. I dont have to get past the vest, just carry a round with enough @ss to knock the snot out of the BG. My plan is escape and evasion. Im no knight in shining armor.
3. No comment
 
1. If you didn't feel that an armored assailant was a risk to plan for or worry about before the Aurora shooting, has your opinion changed?

2. If you feel it's a risk, what can the average citizen do for protection against it?

3. Do you think that the risk is increasing, or are more examples being publicized when they weren't before?

1) No change; very unlikely event, still within the realm of possibility, as before.

2) Same as always: situational awareness, sit near an exit, be aware of anyone coming and going, always be peripherally aware of available cover, avoid high profile, crowded public events. Aside from not being there, the only thing that can put a CCWer even remotely close to parity with an armored, shoulder weapon wielding active shooter is something like a 6-foot diameter concrete tree planter stuffed with dirt and a lot of luck/skill with a service weapon at alarmingly close range. JMO.

3) who knows.
 
At home I might have a chance against an invader with body armor since my first choice there is a 12ga, 1 slug followed up witha tube full of 00 or 2nd choice, a .357 carbine with leverevolution rounds.

On the street against a shielded BG I think my ccw choices of .45 .40 or .380 are going to be a bit anemic unless I can successfully hit pelvis and face.

I think the odds are in my favor that won't ever happen... but things happen.
 
All the guns he used were legal and we need to keep it that way but I just wonder if regular people like me need to own all the armor he had on. I can't really think of a reason.

Work as a security guard.

Work as a civilian in a combat zone (journalist, contractor, DA Civilian).

The unfortunate soul who needs to take a huge cash deposit to the bank after closing a business for a day.

Same as the last one, but in an a state where the law eliminates a weapon as an option.

Home defense kit.

None of those may apply to you, but you appear to be approaching it from an angle where one should prove need before being able to purchase something that is defensive by nature (armor...). It's a little odd to say that the proliferation of guns for the law abiding is fine while calling for a device used in passive defense to be restricted for the same.
 
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