At what point do you stop tuning a load?

[Bfh_auto]

A few years ago I was working up a load in my 22-250. I used the ladder test method and got it to shoot under .75" with no wind. Best was .29 with most groups hovering around .5. I bought a chronograph and my average velocity was 3783 with an extreme spread of 7.
It took over a month of waiting for wind free days for me to find this load.
My wind reading skills suck so I don't think it really benefits me.
I do know a miss was me and not my rifle.
For me less than 50 fps in an accuracy node is enough, but I am always trying to improve.

 

[Dwb1957]

For me it depends on the rifle and what I think it is capable of. If it's a hunting rifle I want 1 moa but I will take 1-1/4 if I've spent four or five trips to the range lol. I have a 223 heavy target barrel rifle that I expect it to shoot 1/4 moa. I got a ar that will shoot around 1/2 moa that I spent a good bit of time working with it it has a 20" heavy barrel on it so I was expecting it to do well it just took some time. I like to keep my Es under 25 but will take less lol.

 

[Walkalong]

I never ever chronoed a 6 PPC load when shooting Benchrest.

Now, the long distance game is different, and a small ES is more important.

 

[brewer12345]

When it meets your needs.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I never ever chronoed a 6 PPC load when shooting Benchrest.

Now, the long distance game is different, and a small ES is more important.

I was hoping to get input from people who shot or shoot competitively.
My little experience using a chrono shows accuracy and extreme spread go hand in hand. But I have seen consistent velocity with horrendous results on paper.

 

[wrench459]

I stopped when the rounds went into the same hole.

 

[jmorris]

When the results I obtain meet or exceed what I need for a given task.

Sometimes just about anything will work and sometimes things are never good enough.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I stopped when the rounds went into the same hole.

I never get a ragged hole. I always drop 1 just so I can practice cursing at myself.

 

[Varminterror]

The tolerance margin for ES varies with the distance being shot. If you’re shooting short range games, ES really isn’t as critical. When playing longer games, that ES which shows up on the chrony but is hidden inside a tiny 200yrd group will reveal itself as inches of vertical spread at 1,000. 24fps ES at 100yrds is a difference of .04” in total drop, at 1,000, it’s 6”.

It’s kinda like drag racing vs. stock car racing. Certain variables matter a lot more the farther you’re going.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't use ES to judge how good a other playing in load is. Accuracy is my guide most times. That said, I'm the long distance game YET.

Just a note, I've seen some rifle loads with an ES of well over 100 that were very accurate. Go figure.

 

[Blue68f100]

The target trumps the crony. I've got some loads that have very poor crony numbers but have always shot exceptional. Like said, if your shooting > 200 yrds the crony numbers come into play. For long distance I want single digits = 0 if possible. In all my shooting I have only seen a 5 shot string like this once. It did show up on the target too, very tight group.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The target trumps the crony. I've got some loads that have very poor crony numbers but have always shot exceptional. Like said, if your shooting > 200 yrds the crony numbers come into play. For long distance I want single digits = 0 if possible. In all my shooting I have only seen a 5 shot string like this once. It did show up on the target too, very tight group.

I've only seen 3 duos flash on my chronograph in a 5 shot string. It was a cast bullet load and shot like crap.

 

[Toprudder]

The tolerance margin for ES varies with the distance being shot. If you’re shooting short range games, ES really isn’t as critical. When playing longer games, that ES which shows up on the chrony but is hidden inside a tiny 200yrd group will reveal itself as inches of vertical spread at 1,000. 24fps ES at 100yrds is a difference of .04” in total drop, at 1,000, it’s 6”.

It’s kinda like drag racing vs. stock car racing. Certain variables matter a lot more the farther you’re going.

^^^^ Summed up pretty well.

I like a low ES and SD as much as anybody, but I won't worry much about it if shooting 100 yards or less. For those distances, a lower SD only indicates to me that the powder is operating in its happy zone, pressure wise. When I go up in charge and see the SD increase, that is just an indicator to me that I may have passed the happy spot.

 

[Bfh_auto]

^^^^ Summed up pretty well.

I like a low ES and SD as much as anybody, but I won't worry much about it if shooting 100 yards or less. For those distances, a lower SD only indicates to me that the powder is operating in its happy zone, pressure wise. When I go up in charge and see the SD increase, that is just an indicator to me that I may have passed the happy spot.

Is that where you back off or change powder?
My property maxes out at just over 500 yds when the hay is baled. I can shoot 400 if I sit on my pond bank. I didn't know how much difference velocity will make.

 

[fotheringill]

When it isn't fun any more.
Seriously.

 

[LoonWulf]

^ yeah, me to for the most part, unless i have something very specific i NEED! (want)...

 

[Toprudder]

Is that where you back off or change powder?
My property maxes out at just over 500 yds when the hay is baled. I can shoot 400 if I sit on my pond bank. I didn't know how much difference velocity will make.

Not necessarily. I often see a couple of different "happy spots" in the charge range when working with rifle. For pistol loads, usually only one, if at all.

 

[fotheringill]

I was really serious in #15 above.

When a frustration level gets way out of balance, it is time for me to step back and do the best that I can with what I have so far. There are so many variables in each aspect of reloading that sooner or later I am like a sight challenged person walking around in a room where the furniture has been moved on me. I think I have done all I can and find out there is another factor involved, i.e. most recently throat erosion and seating depth.

 

[hdwhit]

I don't use velocity spread as a measure in determining when to stop. I stop developing a load when it fulfills its requirements. I'm not a bench rest shooter so in the case of 223/5.56, it must be capable of putting at least nine of ten rounds into the circular divot on the side of a plastic milk jug at 100 meters when fired offhand. If it can do that, I really don't care what the velocity spread is.

That said, I do chronograph loads while they are in development and samples are tested from time to time thereafter. The last batch I tested out of a new-to-me AR had an extreme spread of 101 fps and all the bullets did make it into the circular divot on the side of the milk jug.

 

[z7]

I probably should tweak my current 308 win load some 2658 avg (30 shots on record) SD 9, ES 29fps (I think), but 30fps equates to about .3mils at 1000yds, that is the difference in a hit or a miss

it all depends on application, if the load works, don't tweak it. if you are shooting really far, you need tight numbers AND good accuracy, let either fall and you miss

look up the applied ballistics wez tool and discussion, you can pick a target size and distance, input your load data and environmental data, then run an analysis to determine your probability of a hit, then you can tweak things to determine where you should improve.

from what I remember of watching or reading somewhere, (dont remember where) at distances where ES becomes a big factor, the wind is a significantly larger factor, but you can't control the wind, you can control your ammo to some extent

 

[Bfh_auto]

I probably should tweak my current 308 win load some 2658 avg (30 shots on record) SD 9, ES 29fps (I think), but 30fps equates to about .3mils at 1000yds, that is the difference in a hit or a miss

it all depends on application, if the load works, don't tweak it. if you are shooting really far, you need tight numbers AND good accuracy, let either fall and you miss

look up the applied ballistics wez tool and discussion, you can pick a target size and distance, input your load data and environmental data, then run an analysis to determine your probability of a hit, then you can tweak things to determine where you should improve.

from what I remember of watching or reading somewhere, (dont remember where) at distances where ES becomes a big factor, the wind is a significantly larger factor, but you can't control the wind, you can control your ammo to some extent

I'm at the point where I think my wind calls effect my shooting more than the load. On a càlm day I can make hits on a 4 inch plate at 400 everytime using my hunting rifle. Throw in a 10+ mph wind and that same plate is work at 300. I will never go past 525 because I don't have enough property.

 

[z7]

I'm at the point where I think my wind calls effect my shooting more than the load. On a càlm day I can make hits on a 4 inch plate at 400 everytime using my hunting rifle. Throw in a 10+ mph wind and that same plate is work at 300. I will never go past 525 because I don't have enough property.

you can play with the hornady 4dof software to determine how much your current load's velocity spread could impact your accuracy at 500yds and in. I'd say its not that much, but could be enough to cause the occasional miss when you do not do your part 100% well.

 

[Hondo 60]

I've had some tests where ES was 100+, but accuracy was a ragged hole.
I stopped there.

Could I have gotten a better ES? sure, maybe, but accuracy is king for me.

 

[PhillySoldier]

I may be wrong here but to me extreme spread isnt as much about tuning the data load as it is about staying consistent from one round to the next. In ladder testing I go with what shoots the best groups. If the ES is high, the tuning I will do is to make sure charge weights, projectile weights/size, OAL is more consistent

 

[Varminterror]

Finding a load which shoots tight 3-5 shot groups at 100yrds when everything is perfect is relatively simple. Finding a load which forgives inconsistencies in neck tension, variability in environmental conditions, marginal variation in powder charge weight, variation in case capacity over huge shot strings and holds together at 600-1000yrds is a different game.

It’s powerful to use the colloquialisms like, “the target trumps the chrony,” or follow the experience of, “I’ve seen huge spreads shoot tiny 100yrd groups...” but when you reach out past a few hundred yards, the target will always reveal velocity spreads, so “the target proves the chrony.”

It’s all a matter of your objective. If I’m loading a round to kill deer at 200yrds or less, realistically 50-75yrds, then I don’t even worry much about the target. I find a 1-1.5” load with a bullet I want to use, and feed it. If I want to blast rounds from my 38spcl, I put as little Bullseye, Unique, or HP-38 in the case as will reliably fire, maybe work it to shoot to point of aim for fixed sights, and live happy. For my “normal use” rounds, I know I’ll be living 600-1200yrds, so the chrony results help fast track a load which WON’T print vertical strings.