ATF: ‘Engaging’ Traps More Collectors

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Kharn

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From Shot Gun News
NEAL KNOX REPORT

‘Engaging’ Traps More Collectors

By Neal Knox

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Oct. 20) – Eight St. Louis area collectors were indicted Sept. 28 for “engaging in the gun business†without a Federal Firearms License. They are the latest victims in the 40-year battle over the fuzzy definition of who must have an FFL.

Vaguely defined “unlicensed dealing†carries more severe punishment than some willful violations by licensed dealers – plus the potential forfeiture of every gun in a collection, and the loss of gun ownership rights, firearms hunting rights, and often even voting rights – for life.

In addition to the ruinous legal costs of fighting a felony offense punishable by up to five years imprisonment and $250,000 fine, the St. Louis collectors – five of them 60 to 79 years old – have had 572 firearms seized.

Their guns were already the subjects of civil forfeiture suits. And the criminal indictments also demand their forfeiture – including antiques which are not subject to the Gun Control Act.

The grand jury also indicted a licensed dealer for allegedly selling at gun shows without maintaining required records or conducting background checks – something clearly forbidden in BATF instructions, but only as a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year imprisonment and/or $100,000 fine.

The nine indictments are the result of a year-long BATF investigation in which undercover agents traveled to gun shows in other states to buy and sell guns.

The eight collectors are in a Catch-22. They do not qualify for an FFL under the laws and regulations imposed during the Clinton Administration, which upped the $10 annual license to $500 and required licensees to have a locally sanctioned business with special security systems and regular hours.

Those changes succeeded in meeting President Clinton’s stated goal of reducing the number of dealers – which dropped from about 260,000 to less than 60,000.

Because of those more stringent rules for obtaining a license, the gray area between buying and selling guns as a hobby, and not for “livelihood and profit,†has broadened.

James Martin, lawyer for one of the indicted men, 69-year-old Caesar Gaglio, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch his client is a collector who did not need a license for the relatively few guns he sold. BATF had purchased seven guns from him at gun shows over a five month period. At a later show agents observed him at a table “with about 10 handguns and six long guns for sale.â€

Martin said Gaglio “has a large personal collection and he has been retired. He has sufficient income from his pension and investments to support himself.†He was not trying to make his “livelihood†from gun sales, Martin said. The law exempts from the license requirement anyone who “makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement for a personal collection or for a hobby …â€

In the raid on another indicted man, Elmer Pigg, 79, agents seized 138 guns and “$18,770 … derived from illicit gun sales,†according to BATF.

The BATF and its predecessors have always opposed any objective standard of what constitutes an “illicit gun sale†– as opposed to unlicensed buying and selling for the purpose of enhancing a personal collection, which is specifically authorized in the law.

At the 1968 NRA convention in Boston, officials from BATF’s predecessor, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the Internal Revenue Service, discussed what constituted “engaging in the firearms business†at a crowded NRA Gun Collectors Committee Meeting.

The Midwest Region ATTU director considered the dividing line six gun sales in a year. The head of Boston ATTU contended two sales made a person a dealer. (That guy later charged a Fall River, Mass. memorial group with failure to register the 16-inch guns on the Battleship Massachusetts.)

Significantly, the ATTU official from Washington declined to give an objective definition, saying “dealing†should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

In 1979, while I was NRA-ILA Director, we copied the McClure-Volkmer bill’s definition of “engaging in business†directly from a landmark court case. At BATF’s insistence, that definition was fuzzed before the remnants of the bill passed in 1986.

What so often happens in cases of “unlicensed dealing†is that the accused cannot afford the legal costs to fight the case, and agrees to a single felony offense – losing all gun ownership rights – and forfeiting many thousands of dollars worth of guns. Those cases “make law,†further encouraging BATF.

The St. Louis indictments are the type of precedent-setting cases that caused us to create the NRA Firearms Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund in 1978 – which I hope will assist these cases.

---

Kharn
 
The NRA needs to get behind these guys and bankroll one mother of a lawsuit against the JBTs of the BATF. :barf:
 
Somone realy needs to get rid of the ATF...Or atleast Reform the bunch of idiot Gun Grabbers....
 
WASHINGTON, D.C. (Oct. 20) – Eight St. Louis area collectors were indicted Sept. 28 for “engaging in the gun business†without a Federal Firearms License.

QUOTE]the St. Louis collectors – five of them 60 to 79 years old – have had 572 firearms seized. [/QUOTE]

The grand jury also indicted a

Vaguely defined “unlicensed dealingâ€

BATF arrested them but the grand jury must not think "unlicensed dealing" is a vague term. Sounds to me that the "old timers" pushed the envelope a little too far, they were in fact dealing as charged IMHO. We are not talking about selling 2-3 guns here, that is unless (because its a gun issue) we should ignore common sense, the jury chose not to. :eek:
 
Telewinz, it seems to me that those 572 guns are likely the whole collections of the 8 guys charged, not just the guns they are accused of illegally selling. That's how the ATF works - they'll take anything they can lay their grubby hands on, not just the items involved in the "crime" they're trying to prosecute.
 
One thing I heard from one old-timer with lots of *nice* C&R guns at the range one day seems to complete the picture of what happened here.

The guy planned ahead, and believed that all the WWII guns were gonna become rare and valuable in a number of years, so he bought a *LOT* of Lugers, Mausers and such and just stashed them in his basement. He's been retired a long time and he's been selling off part of his collection whenever he needs an influx of cash that his pension cant provide.

The ~70 year olds the ATF busted might have been of that variaty, or there are those ~70 year olds that just dont realize the laws (or just dont care, figuring the ATF doesnt care about them) and buy and sell as they please.

Kharn
 
Another BATFE success! No telling how many guns were kept off the streets by finally putting these 60-80 year old miscreants behind bars!

:barf:

These jack booted thugs don't really give a damn about fighting real crime, they would rather be harassing old men who sell a few guns now and then.
 
This is terrible and stupid.

But a question arises: Klinton made being a dealer such a nightmare, so, couldn't a future president undo what Klinton did?

Basically, could we ever see the days of Kitchen-Table FFLs buying cheap guns for themselves and thier friends again?

If the laws were changed back, I'd get a real FFL so fast. I'm already putting a C&R through, but it's kind of a half-assed FFL.
 
Why don't they hike their JBT asses down to street corner in Oakland and start arresting gang members instead of harrassing old men. What a bunch of no-good cowards.

GT
 
The Midwest Region ATTU director considered the dividing line six gun sales in a year.
So by this definition, if the 79 year old decides to sell off his collection of 138 guns for some reason, it will take him 23 years to do so (without paying a FFL).
 
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