ATF claiming Internet gun sales illegal???

[Preacherman]

I was talking with my local dealer this morning. He told me that he'd just had a long and acrimonious conversation with a local ATF representative, who had told him that he could no longer do transfers for anyone buying guns out-of-state. According to this ATF guy, no private individual may buy any gun from out-of-state. The only legal way to do it is for the dealer to buy the gun, and then resell it to the person wanting it.

I questioned this strongly, but my dealer (who's a good sort, and trustworthy) was adamant that the ATF were insisting on this, and that he would no longer be able to process transfers for anyone if they'd purchased the gun themselves. Of course, he's willing to act as intermediary to buy the gun, if necessary.

This sounds awful strange to me. It could be the local ATF guys getting snooty, of course, but on the other hand, it might be more widespread. Has anyone heard anything like this from dealers in their area? Is this a new national policy that the ATF is going to enforce? If so, where's the pressure coming from to apply it?

 

[Jonathan]

Doubt it.

 

[Richardson]

I just purchased one today from out of state, to be shipped to my FFL.

It sounds like a misunderstanding on the part of the agent - but that's just a guess.

Richardson

PS... The only conversation I ever had with an ATF agent was very unpleasant, primarily because they would not acknowledge the distinction I was making in my question. They heard half of my question, gave an answer, and stuck with it. I doubt that most agents answering the phone have every scenario memorized - so it irked me that they were not willing to even try to understand my question...

 

[Derby FALs]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

 

[Standing Wolf]

It could be the local ATF guys getting snooty, of course...

The B.A.T.F.E. is famous—perhaps I should say "infamous"—for deliberately spreading disinformation.

I just picked up a High Standard today that I bought from a fellow in Michigan.

 

[DFBonnett]

Sounds like the dealer is blowing smoke because he's looking for a way to kite the price. Maybe the transfer fee isn't enough for him. Find a different FFL. If he isn't full of misinformation he may have been talking to an ATF guy similar to two that I met. To call them stupid would be a compliment.
In either case what he told you is wrong.

 

[rock jock]

Either your dealer misunderstood or the agent misspoke. In any case, it is obviously incorrect.

 

[spacemanspiff]

should ask for the agents name, and call him yourself. have federal law references on hand so you can quote the scripture and verse back to them.

p.s. call from someone elses phone, preferably someone that is your mortal enemy. dont use your real name.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think if this had been an official position taken by the BATF&E it would have been a topic of conversation at the recent SHOT Show, but it wasn't.

I would suggest that the dealer in question call or e-mail the BATF&E office that he normally deals with and ask for written confirmation.

 

[Pilgrim]

I can't imagine BATFE would make a major change in the way of doing business without mailing a bulletin to FFL holders. Relying on word-of-mouth to get the information out is asking for all kinds of problems in court.

My gun shop owning friend gets BATFE bulletins all the time in the mail.

Pilgrim

 

[Coltdriver]

The BATFE has no right to re write the law. Just another govmint beaurocrat who is typically full of BS.

 

[beerslurpy]

Technically he is right, although most places dont call it "selling to the dealer and then to you" they just call their profit the "transfer fee."

The guy on the internet technically isnt selling the gun to you, even though you are paying him. The ownership goes from the wholesaler to the dealer and then to you. This is why the dealer performs the NCIS, enters it into the bound book and the 4473 before he gives you the gun.

 

[DMF]

First, ATF can't decide on their own to do things like this, and every Special Agent and Inspector that works for them knows it. It would require Congress to legislate that a transfer like that is not legal.

Second, even if there were a change in the law, ATF wouldn't spread the information by word of mouth, and again, every Special Agent and Inspector knows that too.

So it's a bunch of horse hockey.

So why would a dealer tell that story? Just speculating, but here is my guess: rather than tell you outright he doesn't want to do internet transfers, because it cuts into his regular sales with a nice profit margin, he will tell a lie about the ATF. Works great because most gun guys believe every BS story they hear about ATF, because the NRA, GOA, and others have lied about them for decades, and everyone has believed the propaganda.

 

[DMF]

In case you're wondering what the ATF's official position is, it's spelled out right here on their website:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3

B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

 

[Preacherman]

Guys, my dealer is NOT a dishonest or shady guy. I believe him implicitly. If he says that's what the ATF agent told him, then that's what he told him. I agree, however, that the ATF agent may have got his knickers in a twist, and given my dealer the wrong information.

I'm going to try to clarify this with the ATF office in Shreveport, LA (our closest ATF office) to see what's going on. In the meantime, it would be interesting to see if other offices or agents of the ATF are trying to get this message out, as this might indicate a change in policy.

 

[carebear]

It realistically cannot be a change in policy.

Changes like that have to have a defined start date to avoid lawsuits. They'd have to pre-publicize it widely and among all dealers or they'd be staring down the barrel of due process and ex post facto rulings for guns in transit.
The chances of them test-floating such a big change in backwater LA is really unlikely.

 

[El Tejon]

Oh, no, not this AGAIN! Yet another gun dealer told me thread. Really, now, between bear and puma threads and dirty bombs in Boston and gun dealer threads it's hard to keep a grip on reality.

Honestly, Preacherman, a gun dealer told you this . . . and you believed him?

Time to review Tio Tejon's Gun Dealer Standard Issue Tall Tales:

1. "Best gun I ever shot/owned/had."
2. "It's deadly accurate."
3. "I ordered it yesterday."
4. "It's like that from the factory."
5. "The law is . . ."
6. "Change in policy from the wholesaler/delivery service/government."

This would fall under #6. Your dealer is shining you on in order to justify a coming price readjustment.

"Gosh, now I have to BUY the gun. With all the transaction costs . . ."

If a gun dealer would just come out and say, "Hey, numbnuts, this isn't a hobby, it's a business, I got to bill you" we would all be better off.

 

[DMF]

. . . that the ATF agent may have got his knickers in a twist, and given my dealer the wrong information.

Over what exactly? As long as the sale is legally done through a FFL the ATF couldn't care less about the transaction, and has posted that on their website, which I linked and quoted.

. . . it would be interesting to see if other offices or agents of the ATF are trying to get this message out. . .

Not the ones I know. Especially not the ones who were discussing their recent gun purchases, with a bunch of agents from various fed agencies, and several local agencies as we were preparing for a surveillance a few weeks ago. Which included discussions of things some of us had bought and sold over the internet, by having a gun transferred through a licensed dealer. Before anyone says anything about exceptions for cops, that's not true. If I want to buy a Mak from SOG, or a HiPower from CDNN I have to follow the exact same rules as everyone else.

Sorry, but your dealer is way off the mark on this one.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Beyond popular belief, the average ATF guy has no clue about all of the federal gun laws. So instead of looking stupid, they make up something.

Had this been an official ATF policy/ruling change, it would have shown up in on of ATF's FFL newsletters and to date, I have not seen it.

Even then, common sense dictates this is fiction. You can make the deal over the telephone, via snail mail, face-to-face, newspaper/magazine ad, Western Union telegram or FAX, but not by email?

 

[DMF]

Beyond popular belief, the average ATF guy has no clue about all of the federal gun laws. So instead of looking stupid, they make up something.

All the ATF Special Agents I know (and I'm betting I know more, and have spent more time talking with them, than you), seem to have an excellent knowledge of federal firearms laws. They spend more than seven months just for their initial training. Then there is additional training during their probation. Then advanced training, etc, etc. Same goes for the Inspectors, although their training is somewhat shorter because they are not LEOs, so they don't have to go through some of the things the agents do.

Agents that don't know the law can't work good cases that go to conviction. However, that's not the case with ATF. There is a good reason AUSAs love working ATF cases, and ATF has the highest conviction rate of any fed LE agency. They know the law, and work good cases.

People should pay less attention to the propaganda from certain sources, and acquaint themselves with the facts.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Of course it's the dealer's fault. No possibility it's the ATF thug's stupidity shining thru.

 

[JMag]

I'd ask the dealer to ask the ATF guy to cough up the supporting docs.

Edited to correct my focus on a previous thread

 

[DMF]

DEA?

 

[cracked butt]

There's a reason FFL holders are sent Federal and State regulations books, and its not for them to be used for doorstops.

 

[foghornl]

DEA?

D epartment (of)
E rroneous
A ctivities

///Wise-N-Hiemer mode off