ATF Directorship and the NRA

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eye5600

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I have distant relative who is very anti-gun. She claims that the BATF has never had a permanent director because the NRA has been able to block everyone who has ever been nominated. Further, she says that temporary appointments are limited to one year so BATF has never had even a temporary director for an extended period.

Skipping over the fact that the NRA doesn't have veto power over Congress, is there any truth to the base claim that BATF has never had a permanent director?
 
A simple check of Wikipedia shows a few not listed as "acting" and some listed as "acting" serving for more than a year. I suppose one could chase down the sources as the article looked to be properly cited, but I would probably ignore her.
 
Wikipedia knows all.

A list of recent ATF directors:

1970–1978 Rex D. Davis (b. 1924 – d. 2008)
1979–1982 G.R. Dickerson
1982–1993 Stephen Higgins (b. 1938)
1993–1999 John Magaw (b. 1935)
1999–2004 Bradley A. Buckles (b. 1949)
2004–Edgar A. Domenech (1st time—acting)
2004–2006 Carl Truscott (b. 1957)
2006 Edgar A. Domenech (2nd time—acting)
2006–2009 Michael Sullivan (acting)
2009 Ronald "Ronnie" A. Carter (acting)
2009–present Kenneth E. Melson (acting)

So, yes, there have been a lot of acting directors, but no, there is no one-year rule.
 
I forget the exact date of the legislation; but it was only recently (during the GWB administration) that the Director of the ATF was a position that required Senate confirmation. Prior to that, the Director was whoever the President appointed. Either right around the same time or shortly after the ATF's move to Department of Justice (instead of Department of the Treasury), the position of ATF Director was changed to require Senate nomination.

There has been no permanent director of ATF since 2006, although I'm not sure how you blame the NRA for that entirely since the Senate has been controlled by the Democrats since 2006. The NRA has certainly objected to the nominees put forth by the Obama administration, as well as several in the Bush era as well though.
 
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I'd imagine that the main reason there have been "acting" directors since the move to Dept of Justice is the Senate conformation part. Those names put forward for the job are stridently "anti-gun" and know that their attitudes against guns and gun owners will be aired before commitee and C-SPAN.

Also, any "acting" director can say "I'm just a placeholder, keeping things running until Justice finds a permant director" thereby giving an excuse for any wrong doing by the ATF under their leadership ie: Fast and Furious.
 
I agree that the NRA is mostly a scapegoat in these arguments. The responsibility is with Congress, and specifically with the Senate with respect to conformations.

Even among shooters who support and vote with the NRA, I doubt that the directorship of the ATF is a prime concern except that they would favor a director who would stop lawless behavior.
 
If the NRA actually had the power the anti's attribute to them we would all be open carrying machine guns.

Doubt it. All the hunters would get scared and squeamish.

Reminds me of the rumors surrounding the adoption of that "sporting purposes" clause in the '68 GCA.
 
If the NRA actually had the power the anti's attribute to them we would all be open carrying machine guns.
LOL. The NRA approved of the machine gun ban. And they're the ones who helped shoot down open carry in FL at the last minute. And then the gun free school zone thingy which effectively banned armed travel they support. And supported the NFA. And supported the GCA of 1968. So I don't know what would happen if the country's oldest gun control org had more power, but I doubt it would be good.
 
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hatt said:
LOL. The NRA approved of the machine gun ban

The NRA does not support the 1986 Hughes Amendment (922(o)) and did not support the amendment in 1986 either. In fact, the NRA's Firearms Rights Civil Defense Fund supported Farmer vs. Higgins - a case that began on October 14, 1986, just five months after 922(o) was enacted. The NRA supported that case all the way to the Supreme Court; but the Court declined to review the decision of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals holding that 922(o) was legal.

And then the gun free school zone thingy which effectively banned armed travel they support.

I don't think you understand the Gun-Free School Zones Act or the NRA's role in it. Because of the NRA, the Gun-Free School Zones Act is subject to state preemption and also has the following exclusions:

** The Act`s prohibitions do not apply to:

1) firearms on private property (including homes used for home schooling);
2) unloaded firearms in a locked container or locked firearms rack in a motor vehicle;
3) unloaded firearms possessed while traversing school grounds to access hunting land;
4) entry authorized by the school;
5) persons licensed by state or local authorities;
6) individuals using a firearm in a school program;
7) law enforcement officers acting in an official capacity.

And supported the NFA.

The NRA in 1934 wasn't even a political organization, It was a club for the shooting sports. This happened about 42 years before the NRA even had an official lobbying organization that attempted to influence legislation directly. Assuming that today's NRA is identical to the NRA of 77 years ago shows a basic logical flaw.

And supported the GCA of 1968.

"On June 24, President Johnson again addressed the country, calling for mandatory national gun registration and licenses for every gun owner. Around this time, polls showed that approximately 80 percent of Americans favored gun registration laws. The public flooded members of Congress with letters demanding greater regulation of guns. Protestors picketed the Washington headquarters of the NRA.[/irl] Even many members of Congress who had been staunch adversaries of strict firearms regulation crossed over to the other side and rallied in favor of a tough gun control bill.

Pro–gun control advocates mobilized and constructed an effective pro–gun control pressure group called the Emergency Committee for Gun Control.... Riding a wave of support, the Committee sought to counteract the highly organized and resource-laden NRA...

Facing this unprecedented, widespread push for gun control, the NRA became highly energized and rallied against the president's proposed regulations. National Rifle Association executive vice-president Franklin L. Orth argued publicly that no law, existing or proposed, could have prevented the murder of Senator Kennedy. On June 15, 1968, the NRA mailed a letter to its members calling for them to write their members of Congress to oppose any new firearms laws. Using hyperbole and emotionally charged rhetoric, NRA President Harold W. Glassen wrote that the right of sportsmen to obtain, own, and use firearms for legal purposes was in grave jeopardy. Furthermore, Glassen wrote, the clear goal of gun control proponents was complete abolition of civilian ownership of guns. Senator Joseph D. Tydings, Democrat of Maryland, who had introduced the provisions requiring licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms, responded to this accusation in a press conference calling the letter "calculated hysteria" and saying no bill would prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns. Nevertheless, Glassen's tactic effectively energized the membership of the NRA, then 900,000 strong, just as the public outcry calling for more firearms regulations was dissipating. Whereas Congress had encountered overwhelming support for more gun control measures in the week after Senator Kennedy's death, by late June and early July they reported the majority of the letters from constituents indicated opposition to any new gun control provisions.

The battle over the president's proposals continued in the halls of Congress in typical fashion, featuring emotionally charged debates and supporters split along specific demographic and ideological lines. In the House, opponents argued against a registration provision claiming it would be costly and ineffective in preventing crime. In the Senate, Dodd attacked the NRA, decrying its tactics of "blackmail, intimidation and unscrupulous propaganda." The licensing and registration provisions, backed solidly by northern liberals, were easily defeated in both the House of Representatives and Senate by a conservative coalition of Republicans and southern Democrats. However, the provisions banning mail-order and out-of-state sales of long guns and ammunition fared better, passing both the House and Senate. Eastern and Midwestern members of Congress overwhelmingly supported these measures, while those from the South and West were much less supportive. Members of Congress representing urban areas staunchly supported the bill, whereas those from rural sections of the country voted against it in significant numbers.

On October 22, President Johnson signed into law the Gun Control Act of 1968—an instrument which, just months earlier, was considered a lost cause because of staunch opposition." Source
 
The NRA got the ball rolling on the GCA.
The shift, by the leadership of the National Rifle Association (NRA), from cautious support for the original Dodd Bill to modest opposition of Senate Bill 1592 foreshadowed the most significant and lasting change in the dynamics of gun control policy to occur in the twentieth century. The NRA and firearms [Page 81] manufacturers had supported Dodd’s original bill and the subsequent addition of interstate controls on long guns.
http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/gca68-nra4.htm

And you realize the GFSZA effectively bans Constitutional carry, unlicensed open carry, LEOSA, concealed carry reciprocity? How anyone pro-gun could claim any victory there is beyond me. And it was passed by massive Republican majorities.
 
hatt said:
The NRA got the ball rolling on the GCA.

Quote:
The shift, by the leadership of the National Rifle Association (NRA), from cautious support for the original Dodd Bill to modest opposition of Senate Bill 1592 foreshadowed the most significant and lasting change in the dynamics of gun control policy to occur in the twentieth century. The NRA and firearms [Page 81] manufacturers had supported Dodd’s original bill and the subsequent addition of interstate controls on long guns.

Source:http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/gca68-nra4.htm

Here is the original bill that Dodd introduced in 1961 as described by your own link:
"The bill required mail-order purchasers of handguns to provide the seller a notarized affidavit stating they were over eighteen years of age and legally entitled to purchase the firearm and restricted the importation of surplus military firearms.[11] The bill had input from the Treasury Department and received support from both the firearms industry and the NRA.[12]

After the assassination of President Kennedy with a mail order, surplus military rifle, Senator Dodd amended his bill to include long guns under the mail order restrictions.[13]"


So in 1961, the NRA supported a bill (SB 1975) to require a person buying military surplus firearms through the mail to supply a notarized affidavit saying they were 18 and legally entitled to purchase firearms. After President Kennedy (an NRA member) was shot, the NRA supported expanding this provision to the interstate sales of long guns.

This was not enough for Senator Dodd, who introduced a more restrictive bill in 1965, which the NRA immediately opposed and continued to oppose throughout 1968 when a compromise version of the bill was signed by President Johnson.

In your mind, NRA supporting SB 1975 is equivalent to supporting the Gun Control Act of 1968?

And you realize the GFSZA effectively bans Constitutional carry, unlicensed open carry, LEOSA, concealed carry reciprocity

The GFSZA removes federal preemption from the table, therefore, if the state Constitution allows carry in a school zone without any additional restrictions, it is legal under federal law as well.

How anyone pro-gun could claim any victory there is beyond me. And it was passed by massive Republican majorities.

So massive numbers of Democrats and Republicans voted for it, and it is the NRAs fault for not stopping it? You feel that rather than obtain the concessions above, the NRA should have opposed it in any form and let it pass unaltered; but remained pure? Sometimes victory is just not getting steamrolled completely by say, inserting a 10 year sunset clause into a bad law. I know it comes as a shock to some who weren't politically active then; but prior to the birth of the Internet, gun rights tended to be more of a defensive fight.
 
The GFSZA removes federal preemption from the table, therefore, if the state Constitution allows carry in a school zone without any additional restrictions, it is legal under federal law as well.
Link addressing any of the points about GFSZA I made? I haven't found it. And you didn't list it in you 7 points. Yeah, you're OK if you're licensed in the State with the school zone. What if you're not. I'd love to see the link because the GFSZA is the worst piece of Federal gun legislation ever.

And yeah I'm blaming the NRA when they support bad bills. No matter how much "good" is in it or what their good intentions were.

The original GCA the NRA was supporting "restricted the importation of surplus military firearms." Doesn't sound very pro-gun to me. And like always by the time the law passes it's out of control.

It would have been a lot worst if we hadn't been there is not a competent argument to me. It about like jobs "saved or created."
 
hatt said:
Link addressing any of the points about GFSZA I made? I haven't found it.

I try to avoid putting out information that isn't true or correct. My first impression is that the express intention not to preempt state legislation makes the strict view of the GFSZA you suggest unlikely; but that is just a WAG since I haven't looked at all of the case law around that and I wouldn't feel comfortable stating that until I can look at it. If I find anything interesting, you can bet I'll share.

The original GCA the NRA was supporting "restricted the importation of surplus military firearms." Doesn't sound very pro-gun to me.

It was apparently popular with the domestic firearms industry at the time, according to your link. However, I think calling SB 1975 "the original GCA" is a bit of a stretch. It "restricted mail-order sales" by requiring purchasers to submit a notarized affidavit saying they were 18 and legal. If the NRA passed that law today, people would be dancing in the streets singing their praises. I don't know what the restriction on the importation of surplus military firearms looked like in SB 1975 because the online legislative records only go back to the 93rd Congress (1973); but if it looked anything like the restriction on mail-order sales, it was probably much less strenuous than the legislation the NRA opposed (the actual GCA of 1968).

And yeah I'm blaming the NRA when they support bad bills. No matter how much "good" is in it or what their good intentions were.

So, a bill is going to pass the legislature. This is beyond question. The NRA should not try to make the bill less nasty than it is; because then it looks like the NRA is supporting a bad bill. Does that sum up your point of view?

It would have been a lot worst if we hadn't been there is not a competent argument to me. It about like jobs "saved or created."

OK, by your own account, there were massive Republican votes for the bill. I would presume, given the politics of the time, there were also massive Democratic votes for the bill. So apparently, there was a lot of support for the bill in Congress even before the NRA proposed revisions, yet you state that "it could have been worse" is not a valid argument.

I am confused by this. It seems evident (pre-NRA version vs. post-NRA version) that it indeed could have and would have been worse had the NRA done nothing but opposed the bill. Were you suggesting the NRA had the power to swing a bill that was in your words "passed by massive Republican majorities."

If that is what you were suggesting, do you have some evidence for that? A link to the vote on the bill perhaps?
 
"If the NRA actually had the power the anti's attribute to them we would all be open carrying machine guns."

Tempting, but I'd be tending towards a pistol conversion on a De Lisle right now in this beautiful dream world. :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=618853

People look for a boogeyman to push their illogical arguments on. The biggest and most visible becomes the cause of all problems in their mind whether there is a connection or not.

Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is usually the right one. She needs to read up a touch more.
 
The Republican comment wasn't directed directly at the NRA, it was directed at the folks who think the Republicans are pro-gun. The GOP and NRA share a lot of similarities however. Compromising away Rights and common sense one day and asking for money the next to fight for your Rights.

I don't think the GFSZA is being interpreted that strictly either. I know I ignore it, no other choice. But that doesn't mean it won't be at some point. It's on the books, written plain as day. "It's a good law because it probably isn't going to be strictly interpreted to catch honest folk" also isn't something I'm on board with. You shouldn't have to walk around on egg shells and hope .gov isn't looking for someone to enforce their agenda upon that day.

I've seen enough from the NRA, and Republicans, to know they don't speak for me or the Constitution. They're in business for themselves.
 
hatt said:
The Republican comment wasn't directed directly at the NRA, it was directed at the folks who think the Republicans are pro-gun.

I understand perfectly how you meant it. I am just questioning how you can point out that a bill has massive support on one hand and then blame the NRA for not defeating it on the other hand?

The GOP and NRA share a lot of similarities however. Compromising away Rights and common sense one day and asking for money the next to fight for your Rights.

Yeah, our political system is pretty much built around compromises. The end result of that is that if you are effective in it, you make compromises too - including bad compromises every now and then by sheer virtue of the odds and the parties involved.

The alternative is that you don't compromise at all - which means you are either the supermajority and don't need to compromise (like say those opposing voting rights for domestic animals) or you are ineffective and accomplish nothing legislatively.

To give an example, GOA declared Sen. Tom Coburn their "Most important election" and made getting him elected a prime goal. Sen. Coburn then voted against them on the 2007 NICS Improvement Act. Not only just voted against them; but GOA was still putting out press releases about how he was blocking the bill days after he switched his vote, so he apparently wasn't too close in communication with them either. GOA went ahead and gave him an A+ rating in 2010 for his first re-election challenge.

Apparently GOA, who prides themselves on being "the only no-compromise gun lobby in Washington" decided that they had enough in common with Sen. Coburn that they were willing to compromise and give him an A+ despite his voting against them on legislation they indicated was critical to them.

I've seen enough from the NRA, and Republicans, to know they don't speak for me or the Constitution.

The NRA speaks for its members. If you aren't a member, they don't speak for you. If you don't like what they are doing, then you can either get more involved or you can let the people you oppose take over the organization. Your call.
 
"If the NRA actually had the power the anti's attribute to them we would all be open carrying machine guns. "


NO WE WOULD NOT.

The NRA threw NFA owners under the bus in the Hughs Amd. One reason I refuse to give them money, another is because of board members like "5 shot Jackson". Pro gun you say? I say thats only true if they are "politically correct" guns.
 
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