ATF proposes to reclassify M855/SS109 green tip as armor-piercing ammo

Status
Not open for further replies.
This may have been covered, but I didn't see it...if and when (did that already happen?) M855 is banned as armour piercing handgun ammunition (or whatever)...

...will it be legal to sell/transfer it?
 
"Proof that the agency willfully and deliberately violated the Administrative Procedure Act is Game-Set-Match TO Obama?"
Uh, yeah, I think a decision affecting potential if not literal millions Americans without any notification or representation sounds like a candidate for unanimous judicial smackdown number...are we over 20, yet?
 
Everyone needs to remember that the ATF Regulation Guide is _not_ the law. Whether it list something as exempted or not doesn't matter from a legal standpoint. If they meant to use that document to show that M855 was banned, they would have explicitly listed it in the armor-piercing-ammo list. They didn't list 30-06 M2AP in the new one either and I don't think there is any question that it is exempt. (hopefully)

Matt
 
One simple question for the BATFE - By what authority do you propose to tell me what I can or cannot buy or possess or use?:scrutiny:
 
Congress' authority, which was given to the ATF since they get bored too easily. Were you really serious about that question?
 
Yes, I was serious. So who gave Congress the authority to "infringe" on the Bill of Rights by requiring a "sporting purpose"? (which I cannot seem to find in the Constitution anywhere) All I see is "shall not infringe". This seems to be exactly like the War Powers Act where Congress "gave" the Pres. the power to wage war with U.S troops whenever he wants. Congress was never granted that authority by the Constitution. They simply "assumed" it and everybody went long with it.
 
Last edited:
Yes this is an infringement on our 2nd amendment rights. Yes BATFE has already decided to ban M-855. Yes congress has written a letter objecting. Congress should repeal the gun control act of 1968 and every other unconstitutional law it has passed that has eroded our 2nd amendment. M-855 Green Tip is listed by NATO as Heavy Ball, there is a 5.56 Armor Piercing 52 grain Tungsten Core Black Tip M-995 round that was developed by the U.S. if the BATFE knew or cared about protecting police wouldn't they list the actual Armor Piercing ammo in their banned list?
 
woodweasel58 said:
there is a 5.56 Armor Piercing 52 grain Tungsten Core Black Tip M-995 round that was developed by the U.S. if the BATFE knew or cared about protecting police wouldn't they list the actual Armor Piercing ammo in their banned list?
Click to expand...

..the actual armor piercing 5.56 round IS banned.
 
woodweasel58 said:
Congress should repeal the gun control act of 1968 and every other unconstitutional law it has passed that has eroded our 2nd amendment.
Click to expand...

Congress does not have the power to repeal anything.
 
Nonsense Congress can pass a law repealing any prior law.

Its not going to happen anytime soon but they certainly have the power to do it.
 
Nonsense Congress can pass a law repealing any prior law.
Click to expand...

Congress can pass NO Laws.

All Laws and Bills must be signed by the President of the United States. A Presidential Veto override needs 2/3 majority of Congress. In other words, Congress can pass NO laws/Bills or override any Obama veto.

Looking to Congress to stop this a kin to asking your Local Bartender.
 
Congress can pass laws, Congress can override the ATF on this, Congress can override and a Presidential veto.

The fact that we don't believe that will happen in this case does not change the fact that Congress does hold such power.
 
Couldn't congress simply recend the congressional authority that a previous congress delegated to ATF?

Edit: Not to imply that congress has legal authority under the Constitution to regulate the possession of arms (and ammunition) in the first place.
 
Last edited:
Couldn't congress simply recend the congressional authority that a previous congress delegated to ATF?
Click to expand...

No.

Anything they do must be approved by the President.

No.

There is not enough support for any Bills or Action to override an Obama veto.
 
What about "no congress can bind another congress"? Seems their authority is being bound by a previous congress that opted to delegate some of their (the original congress) power. The Costitution still provides legislative authority to congress and not to administrative agencies. If this congress didn't delegate their authority, I dont see why they should be bound to not possess their full authority. And if they did delegate it, why couldn't they recind their own delegation?
 
Last edited:
I've read through all of these, and recall friends and even relatives looking at me like I had a problem for having an AR. "What do you need one of those for you can't hunt with them". I wonder now if any of them understand what the real purpose of the 2nd is. " to insure the government is incapable of imposing it's will on the people becoming tryanical". All those who didn't think it affected them or that isn't too restrictive, now they see why letting any infringement at all has led to this over many years.
 
I'm wondering if I'm missing the larger point here. Isn't BATFE a Revenue agency? How is revenue related to body armor penetration by certain types of ammunition? At what level does it come into their purview to ban ammunition types?
 
In 1986 the BATFE granted an exemption request for SS109/M855 "armor piercing" ammunition.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf


LEOPA also contains an exemption provision applicable to ammunition which otherwise falls within the definition of armor piercing, but which the Attorney General determines to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.” 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). LEOPA did not further define the terms “primarily intended” or “sporting purposes.” As noted, the Attorney General has delegated the authority to make “sporting purposes” determinations to the Director.

......................................................................................................


To facilitate the exercise of that authority ATF promulgated 27 CFR 478.148. This section provides that “a person who desires to obtain an exemption under this section for [armor piercing ammunition] which is primarily intended for sporting purposes . . . shall submit a written request to the [ATF] Director.” 27 CFR 478.148.

Prior to the passage of LEOPA, the GCA already contained other provisions that relied upon “sporting purpose” language as a basis for exempting otherwise applicable restrictions on firearms.2 In administering these provisions of the GCA, ATF has consistently interpreted “sporting purposes” to include the traditional sports of hunting, competitive target shooting, and skeet and trap shooting.3 Although those activities constituting “sporting purposes” are well established, the application of that term under 921(a)(17)(C) is unique. As stated above, the GCA requires that the Attorney General determine that the ammunition is “primarily intended” to be used for sporting purposes in order for ammunition that is otherwise defined as armor piercing to qualify for the exemption.

Between 1986 and 2011, ATF received few exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition. In 1986, ATF exempted 5.56 mm (.223) SS109 and M855 “green tip” ammunition containing a steel core. Similarly, in 1992, ATF exempted .30-06 M2AP cartridges. Since 2011, however, ATF has received approximately 30 exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition. Several developments since 1992 have spurred the influx of exemption requests.
Click to expand...


Now the BATFE wants to revoke the exemption based on the proliferation of.223/5.56mm caliber semi-automatic handguns. Is the longer comment period required by law in this case?

Applying the sporting purposes framework set-forth above, the 5.56mm projectile that ATF exempted in 1986 does not qualify for an exemption because that projectile when loaded into SS109 and M855 cartridges may be used in a handgun other than a single-shot handgun. Specifically, 5.56mm projectiles loaded into the SS109 and M855 cartridges are commonly used
in both “AR-type” rifles and “AR-type” handguns. The AR platform is the semi-automatic version of the M16 machinegun originally designed for and used by the military. The AR-based handguns and rifles utilize the same magazines and share identical receivers.

These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.7

ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition. However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce such armor piercing ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers and importers will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition.8 ATF is specifically soliciting comments on how it can best implement withdrawal of this exemption while minimizing disruption to the ammunition and firearm industry and maximizing officer safety.

Under the proposed framework, the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges would continue because ATF is not aware of any multi-shot handguns available in the ordinary channels of commerce that currently accept such ammunition.
Click to expand...
 
steve4102 said:
No.

Anything they do must be approved by the President.
Click to expand...
You are wrong. This sentence is factually incorrect.

Again, the fact that we don't think Congress wants to do something enough to do it does not change the fact that they do indeed have the power to do so, if they choose.
 
There's another factor being ignored. Congress and The President are just two of the Three Branches of Government.

The Courts can determine if a law is unconstitutional, and the Courts can make a judgment of declaratory relief to stop a regulatory agency from enacting a regulation that has the power of law.

The President is not an absolute monarch and those who believe it never explain why he hasn't done all of the gun/ammo ban stuff six years ago. He can't, that's why, and also why he had to get the ATF to pick one they could get behind.

The way they've handled it so far, it looks as if the ATF is actually trying to lose this one. It's really a comedy of errors now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
Armor-piercing ammo ban
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
beerslurpy
B
N
  • Locked
Armor Piercing Rifle Ammo?
2
Replies
34
Views
6K
uglygun
U
C
  • Locked
Does green tip (ss109 or M855) penetrate body armor out of pistol-length barrels?
2
Replies
31
Views
12K
denton
D
R
  • Locked
The letter I sent to the ATF re: the proposed "ammo ban"
Replies
0
Views
1K
Rmeju
R
ol' scratch
  • Locked
5.45 7n6 ATF ammo question. How is it legal under definition of AP? Is M855 next?
Replies
17
Views
2K
itsa pain
I
Back
Top