ATF Raid on Airport Exec in Ark, update

[Pudge]

Anyone coming after you would be smart to not allow you to see or know their movements, for the same reasons you want to see them. It's an advantage, from the first game of checkers we all know its best to take advantages away from opponents.

Why does law enforcement "come after you" in obvious uniforms, with badges and identification displayed, from marked vehicles with flashing lights?

So that you know it isn't a thug trying to carjack you?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that violating the laws of this nation, or the rules of the ATF is a good idea. I intentionally follow them, and advise others to do so. But believing law enforcement has a duty to enforce laws, does not mean that you can't critically examine/discuss tactics that resulted in the shooting death of a suspect. It seems fairly obvious that different tactics could have avoided the confrontation, the suspect would still be alive and we'd be criticizing a guy for dealing firearms without a license, rather than discussing the actions of an agency of the DOJ which serve to only make gun owners less trustful of how law enforcement will treat them.

 

[Barmcd]

Why does law enforcement "come after you" in obvious uniforms, with badges and identification displayed, from marked vehicles with flashing lights?

So that you know it isn't a thug trying to carjack you?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that violating the laws of this nation, or the rules of the ATF is a good idea. I intentionally follow them, and advise others to do so. But believing law enforcement has a duty to enforce laws, does not mean that you can't critically examine/discuss tactics that resulted in the shooting death of a suspect. It seems fairly obvious that different tactics could have avoided the confrontation, the suspect would still be alive and we'd be criticizing a guy for dealing firearms without a license, rather than discussing the actions of an agency of the DOJ which serve to only make gun owners less trustful of how law enforcement will treat them.

Doesn't critically examining tactics involve looking at both sides of the incident? Who knows what would have happened if they'd showed up at his office as some have suggested.

I don't know what kind of man the deceased was, but he was facing serious federal time for weapons charges if the allegations were true. The ATF certainly knew every firearm he purchased, but probably not how many he still had. They were serving a warrant on a well-armed, potentially desperate, man. They could have been walking into a gun fight and prepared accordingly.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

I don't understand why a highly paid executive would engage in such activity, he couldn't have been making much money compared to his salary.

Worked with a guy about 10 years ago who made around 170K living in small town rural Iowa. The median income was around 45K in that area, so that 170K meant he lived like a king.
Anyways, he had a company vehicle and a company gas card and got caught filling his wife's SUV up with gas on several occasions. He got walked out the door and no longer makes 170K.

Moral of the story, people are idiots and do stupid things. Money doesn't exclude you from being a moron.

 

[jmorris]

Why does law enforcement "come after you" in obvious uniforms, with badges and identification displayed, from marked vehicles with flashing lights?

So that you know it isn't a thug trying to carjack you?

Oh, they kill people all the time doing things like that and normal people don't know whats going on. From causing accidents due to lights not being on to shooting a gentleman on a stroll in the park with headphones on and yes people simply defending their home from "invaders".

Bad tactic for everyone, except them and probably why they still do it.

If we go much beyond that, for this case, it will be for not because discussion of politics is not allowed and will be deleted.

 

[Pudge]

Why does law enforcement "come after you" in obvious uniforms, with badges and identification displayed, from marked vehicles with flashing lights?

So that you know it isn't a thug trying to carjack you?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that violating the laws of this nation, or the rules of the ATF is a good idea. I intentionally follow them, and advise others to do so. But believing law enforcement has a duty to enforce laws, does not mean that you can't critically examine/discuss tactics that resulted in the shooting death of a suspect. It seems fairly obvious that different tactics could have avoided the confrontation, the suspect would still be alive and we'd be criticizing a guy for dealing firearms without a license, rather than discussing the actions of an agency of the DOJ which serve to only make gun owners less trustful of how law enforcement will treat them.

Doesn't critically examining tactics involve looking at both sides of the incident? Who knows what would have happened if they'd showed up at his office as some have suggested.

I don't know what kind of man the deceased was, but he was facing serious federal time for weapons charges if the allegations were true. The ATF certainly knew every firearm he purchased, but probably not how many he still had. They were serving a warrant on a well-armed, potentially desperate, man. They could have been walking into a gun fight and prepared accordingly.

Did you read the warrant? The ATF, were serving a search warrant on a property, not a man. They intentionally decided to search the property in a manner that willfully initiated a confrontation with that "well-armed, potentially desperate man".

I would suggest that executing that search warrant in a manner which avoided such a confrontation would have been safer for everyone involved, especially when it is so easy to see how that confrontation could precipitate a gunfight.

 

[Elkins45]

Me too.

I don't believe that there should be any gun laws because the Second Amendment means what it says. But until SCOTUS agrees, I'm going to abide by the law.

It does chap my hiney when I'm required to abide by those laws and others flaunt them. There were sellers that must have huge estates, because six times a year for ten years they were having guns on their tables marked "Estate Sale". And that was only at Dallas Market Hall. I know they sold at other shows as well. Being unlicensed means no paperwork, Thats a sales pitch for "We sell to criminals and others who can't pass a background check".

Agreed. I would never rat them out because I believe they should be able to buy and sell guns no differently than if they were selling fishing reels or beanie babies. But it just pisses me off because every time I make a private sale or trade of a gun that’s on a 4473 in my name I worry about it coming back to bite me. Meanwhile these guys could sell a crate of AK’s to MS13 with seemingly complete impunity.

 

[jmorris]

I would suggest that executing that search warrant in a manner which avoided such a confrontation would have been safer for everyone involved, especially when it is so easy to see how that confrontation could precipitate a gunfight.

It would have been but that was not the motivating factor in making the decision to turn the warrant into a "statement".

 

[Charlie98]

Worked with a guy about 10 years ago who made around 170K living in small town rural Iowa. The median income was around 45K in that area, so that 170K meant he lived like a king.
Anyways, he had a company vehicle and a company gas card and got caught filling his wife's SUV up with gas on several occasions. He got walked out the door and no longer makes 170K.

Moral of the story, people are idiots and do stupid things. Money doesn't exclude you from being a moron.

In much the same manner... I worked as a gas hauler here in Dallas for some time. No, we drivers didn't make a whole lot of money. Anyway, some of the drivers decided that it was OK to draw fuel off the loaded tankers to fill their vehicles up... as a perk. You know... 'they can fill my car up to allow me to drive to work, right?' Yea, no. They were stealing the customer's product, not the employer's product.

You can justify anything in your mind if you think about it long enough.

I don't believe that there should be any gun laws because the Second Amendment means what it says. But until SCOTUS agrees, I'm going to abide by the law.

But at the end of the day, the law is the law... even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Peakbagger46]

This type of warrant service is not how real day to day local law enforcement does business. Unfortunately the pencil pushing Feds seldom get to “play cop” and seemingly too often overact and use piss poor and overly aggressive tactics.

 

[jmorris]

Unfortunately the pencil pushing Feds seldom get to “play cop” and seemingly too often overact and use piss poor and overly aggressive tactics.

Sometimes, other times they ignore laws being broken.

Google "rioters in court", click on "images", how many are of people destructing property, committing arson, looting, etc?

Now how many are of people gathered at the Capitol on Jan 6?

Just for fun, do that again using "mostly peaceful protests", to see the damage caused by people that were never arrested or charged with anything.

 

[S.Crockett]

Well, this thread reminds me of something a cop acquaintance said a few years back ….

“You may beat the rap but you’ll never beat the ride.” To which he added: “Most times that’s to the county lock-up. But sometimes it’s to the morgue.”

It seemed, at the time, he was offering a philosophical observation on the arrest process, but that last part came with a bit of a smile. It gave an odd finality to it.

 

[dogtown tom]

This type of warrant service is not how real day to day local law enforcement does business.

It is in Texas.
Heck, just a few years ago McKinney PD destroyed a ladies house because some nutjob ran inside.

Unfortunately the pencil pushing Feds seldom get to “play cop” and seemingly too often overact and use piss poor and overly aggressive tactics.

I have dozens of customers that are Federal LE and they sure as heck get to "play cop" pretty often. It isn't all door kicking, but some do it every week.

Have you ever met a Fed LE? Doesn't sound like it.

 

[Robert]

The details of police operations and n the general sense is off topic for THR. This one went pretty much the same as the last one...