Kali Endgame
member
+1 with Pilgrim. What is the story? I remember one about a guy who shot the Sherrif's son during a raid.
Atlanta cops indicted for killing eldery woman
- Thread starter News Shooter
- Start date
- Status
Normally, I try to avoid cop bashing, but in this case, it is difficult.
1. Some cops conducted a no-knock raid in plain clothes.
2. They lied to get the warrant and apparently conducted little or no investigation.
3. They apparently carried 3 bags of marijuana with them to plant at the scene.
The 2nd two at least add up to dirty cops. All three scare the hell out of me.
1. Some cops conducted a no-knock raid in plain clothes.
2. They lied to get the warrant and apparently conducted little or no investigation.
3. They apparently carried 3 bags of marijuana with them to plant at the scene.
The 2nd two at least add up to dirty cops. All three scare the hell out of me.
RichardInFlorida
Member
July 24, 1999 in Cobb County, GA. A subject assaults one of his neighbors and shoots a police officer when he responded. The subject then barricades himself inside the residence.
During the prolonged standoff, the officers learn the subject's mother is in the house. The subject will not let the negotiators speak with her to ensure she is ok.
Negotiations deteriorate and the negotiators and command staff fear for the safety of the mother. The decision is made to make a dynamic entry to rescue her.
I won't go into all of the tactics, however, one team makes entry through a door and is met by a high volume of fire. Of the five officers that made entry at this location, two are killed and either one or two more are wounded.
The entry and the rescue fail.
A very in-depth analysis was produced by the National Tactical Officer's Association. You may want to check their website or the Atlanta Journal Constitution's web archives for more details.
During the prolonged standoff, the officers learn the subject's mother is in the house. The subject will not let the negotiators speak with her to ensure she is ok.
Negotiations deteriorate and the negotiators and command staff fear for the safety of the mother. The decision is made to make a dynamic entry to rescue her.
I won't go into all of the tactics, however, one team makes entry through a door and is met by a high volume of fire. Of the five officers that made entry at this location, two are killed and either one or two more are wounded.
The entry and the rescue fail.
A very in-depth analysis was produced by the National Tactical Officer's Association. You may want to check their website or the Atlanta Journal Constitution's web archives for more details.
pcosmar
member
RichardInFlorida
?????
This has what to do with this story?
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=58869
An innocent homeowner was killed in her home.
Drugs were planted after the fact.
The officers lied before and after the killing.
Your story is linked how?
?????
This has what to do with this story?
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=58869
An innocent homeowner was killed in her home.
Drugs were planted after the fact.
The officers lied before and after the killing.
Your story is linked how?
RichardInFlorida
Member
pcosmar,
If you read the thread, you will note that two people asked me for the specifics of the case I detailed.
Additionally, if you read the thread, you will see my comments regarding the Atlanta story.
I don't know how close to the investigation you are, however, if all of your information about the Atlanta case comes from the media, I would suggest you may not have all of the facts. After all, we all know the media have lied about, fabricated, and simply misrepresented many facts related to firearms.
If you read the thread, you will note that two people asked me for the specifics of the case I detailed.
Additionally, if you read the thread, you will see my comments regarding the Atlanta story.
I don't know how close to the investigation you are, however, if all of your information about the Atlanta case comes from the media, I would suggest you may not have all of the facts. After all, we all know the media have lied about, fabricated, and simply misrepresented many facts related to firearms.
Richard, I just went over the thread again, and I missed anyone asking you for anything. Cross threaded, maybe?
The case being discussed in this thread - well, everything I've seen seems pretty damning for the officers involved. Not all - in fact, almost none - of what I've seen on this case was a summary from 'the media'. Mostly internet sources, blogs, etc.
These officers hit the wrong house with a no-knock, no-announce, no-uniform warrant. Well, I doubt that was the way the warrant was written, but that is the way it was served.
When they killed the lady that lived there, they planted marijuana and coerced an informant into backing their cover story. The frame-up didn't hold water, widespread public outcry forced the Chief of Police into requesting an outside agency investigate.
I don't know the motive for the raid. Doesn't matter to me. They came prepared for a bust - hey, convenient when you bring your own 'evidence' - and nearly got away with murder.
This case is another poster child for the unwarranted danger of 'no-knock' warrants to innocent people. Unfortunately, it is far from being the only such. I don't know about you, but for me - and for lots of potential jurors - this case should cast some serious doubts on every minor drug bust, every raid that ends up with a citizen with no previous record dead or 'found with' minor amounts of drugs.
Don't get me wrong - I hate what drugs do to people. But I hate the thought of 'above the law' cops even more. When innocence is no protection, of what value is the law? Do we as individuals, and as a country, really want to go down the road we seem to be on?
The case being discussed in this thread - well, everything I've seen seems pretty damning for the officers involved. Not all - in fact, almost none - of what I've seen on this case was a summary from 'the media'. Mostly internet sources, blogs, etc.
These officers hit the wrong house with a no-knock, no-announce, no-uniform warrant. Well, I doubt that was the way the warrant was written, but that is the way it was served.
When they killed the lady that lived there, they planted marijuana and coerced an informant into backing their cover story. The frame-up didn't hold water, widespread public outcry forced the Chief of Police into requesting an outside agency investigate.
I don't know the motive for the raid. Doesn't matter to me. They came prepared for a bust - hey, convenient when you bring your own 'evidence' - and nearly got away with murder.
This case is another poster child for the unwarranted danger of 'no-knock' warrants to innocent people. Unfortunately, it is far from being the only such. I don't know about you, but for me - and for lots of potential jurors - this case should cast some serious doubts on every minor drug bust, every raid that ends up with a citizen with no previous record dead or 'found with' minor amounts of drugs.
Don't get me wrong - I hate what drugs do to people. But I hate the thought of 'above the law' cops even more. When innocence is no protection, of what value is the law? Do we as individuals, and as a country, really want to go down the road we seem to be on?
RichardInFlorida
Member
Bowline,
I agree with most of what you say. I have no doubts that there are serious problems with this case and I question how closely the judge reviewed their affidavit applying for the warrant.
There are a lot of problems with the officers' case. However, the flip side is the state's best witness is a convicted criminal (the informant). I hope the state has plenty of solid physical evidence and post-Miranda admissions by the officers to make this case stick. Depending on how the interviews of the officers were done (read: Garrity) their statements may not be admissible.
I just think it is a bit perverse how a lot of people like to pick and choose when the media is considered reliable for accurate information.
RE: the Cobb County case, you will note that Pilgrim made mention of a homeowner with a defensive plan destroying an entry team. From there I responded and then both Pilgrim and Kali requested information on the specifics. You will also note that kcmarine also posted incident information that fits Pilgrim's observation.
I agree with most of what you say. I have no doubts that there are serious problems with this case and I question how closely the judge reviewed their affidavit applying for the warrant.
There are a lot of problems with the officers' case. However, the flip side is the state's best witness is a convicted criminal (the informant). I hope the state has plenty of solid physical evidence and post-Miranda admissions by the officers to make this case stick. Depending on how the interviews of the officers were done (read: Garrity) their statements may not be admissible.
I just think it is a bit perverse how a lot of people like to pick and choose when the media is considered reliable for accurate information.
RE: the Cobb County case, you will note that Pilgrim made mention of a homeowner with a defensive plan destroying an entry team. From there I responded and then both Pilgrim and Kali requested information on the specifics. You will also note that kcmarine also posted incident information that fits Pilgrim's observation.
shooting time
Member
The atlanta news last night said the investigation determined the woman fired only 1 shot not hitting anyone
pcosmar
member
RichardInFlorida
This is the original story.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10374909/detail.html
The story, the "official reports", changed 3 times in the first days after this happened. Thats what caught my attention, and possibly others.
This is the follow up on a crime that was the subject of several threads.
It is good to see that some of those involved will be punished. It would be better if the laws and policies would change.
This is the original story.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10374909/detail.html
The story, the "official reports", changed 3 times in the first days after this happened. Thats what caught my attention, and possibly others.
This is the follow up on a crime that was the subject of several threads.
It is good to see that some of those involved will be punished. It would be better if the laws and policies would change.
Re: Isolated incident; the "few bad apples" myth, etc...
Apparently, those oft-stated cliches are shattered...have the "bashers" been right all along? Some apologists might want to re-think, eh? Or, we could attack the media, and these federal prosecutors, in order to preserve the myth?
Alternatively, how about reconsidering the efficacy of the entire war on drugs, and its corrupting effect on ALL segments of society. That might be a welcome change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070427/ZNYT02/704270893
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prosecutors Say Corruption in Atlanta Police Dept. Is Widespread
SHAILA DEWAN AND BRENDA GOODMAN
ATLANTA, April 26 — After the fatal police shooting of an elderly woman in a botched drug raid, the United States attorney here said Thursday that prosecutors were investigating a “culture of misconduct” in the Atlanta Police Department.
In court documents, prosecutors said Atlanta police officers regularly lied to obtain search warrants and fabricated documentation of drug purchases, as they had when they raided the home of the woman, Kathryn Johnston, in November, killing her in a hail of bullets.
Narcotics officers have admitted to planting marijuana in Ms. Johnston’s home after her death and submitting as evidence cocaine they falsely claimed had been bought at her house, according to the court filings.
Two of the three officers indicted in the shooting, Gregg Junnier and Jason R. Smith, pleaded guilty on Thursday to state charges including involuntary manslaughter and federal charges of conspiracy to violate Ms. Johnston’s civil rights.
“Former officers Junnier and Smith will also help us continue our very active ongoing investigation into just how wide the culture of misconduct that led to this tragedy extends within the Atlanta Police Department,” said David Nahmias, the United States attorney.
Asked how widespread such practices might be, Mr. Nahmias said investigators were looking at narcotics officers, officers who had once served in the narcotics unit and “officers that had never been in that unit but may have adopted that practice.”
The investigation has already led to scrutiny of criminal cases involving the indicted officers and others who may have used similar tactics. Paul Howard, the Fulton County district attorney, said his office was reviewing at least 100 cases involving the three officers, including 10 in which defendants were in jail.
If they continue to cooperate, Mr. Junnier, who retired after the shooting, faces a minimum of 10 years in prison and Mr. Smith, who resigned Thursday, faces 12 years.
The third officer, Arthur Tesler, declined a plea deal. He was indicted on charges of violation of oath by a public officer, making false statements and false imprisonment under color of legal process.
Mr. Tesler’s lawyer, John Garland, said his client was following his training when he put false claims in an affidavit.
Mr. Nahmias took a moment to dwell on what he said was the unusual nature of the officers’ offenses.
“The officers charged today were not corrupt in the sense that we have seen before,” he said. “They are not accused of seeking payoffs or trying to rob drug dealers or trying to protect gang members. Their goal was to arrest drug dealers and seize illegal drugs, and that’s what we want our police officers to do for our community.
“But these officers pursued that goal by corrupting the justice system, because when it was hard to do their job the way the Constitution requires, they let the ends justify their means.”
Mr. Nahmias said the statement in the plea agreement that officers cut corners in order to “be considered productive officers and to meet A.P.D.’s performance targets” reflected their perception of the department’s expectations.
The police chief, Richard Pennington, said that officers were not trained to lie and that they had no performance quotas. Two weeks ago, he announced changes to the narcotics squad, including increasing the unit’s size and more careful reviews of requests for so-called no-knock warrants like the one served on Ms. Johnston’s home.
“Let me assure you, if we find out any other officers have been involved in such egregious acts, they will be dealt with just as sternly as these other officers have been,” said Chief Pennington, who after the shooting asked for a review by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. “I assure you that we will not tolerate any officers violating the law and mistreating our citizens in this city.”
The death of Ms. Johnston, whose age is listed variously as 88 or 92, outraged Atlantans, brought simmering discontent with police conduct toward residents to a boil and led to the creation of a civilian review board for the Police Department.
The day she was killed, narcotics officers said, they arrested a drug dealer who said he could tell them where to recover a kilogram of cocaine, and pointed out Ms. Johnston’s modest green-trimmed house at 933 Neal Street.
Instead of hiring an informant to try to buy drugs at the house, the officers filed for a search warrant, claiming that drugs had been bought there from a man named Sam. Because they falsely claimed that the house was equipped with surveillance equipment, they got a no-knock warrant that allowed them to break down the front door.
First, according to court papers, they pried off the burglar bars and began to ram open the door. Ms. Johnston, who lived alone, fired a single shot from a .38-caliber revolver through the front door and the officers fired back, killing her.
After the shooting, they handcuffed her and searched the house, finding no drugs.
“She was without question an innocent civilian who was caught in the worst circumstance imaginable,” Mr. Howard, the district attorney, said at a news conference on Thursday. “When we learned of her death, all of us imagined our own mothers and our own grandmothers in her place, and the thought made us shudder.”
When no drugs were found, the cover-up began in earnest, according to court papers.
Officer Smith planted three bags of marijuana, which had been recovered earlier in the day in an unrelated search, in the basement. He called a confidential informant and instructed him to pretend he had made the drug buy described in the affidavit for the search warrant.
The three officers, Mr. Junnier, Mr. Smith and Officer Tesler met to concoct a story before talking with homicide detectives, the court filings say.
Though the three met several more times, prosecutors said, Mr. Junnier admitted the truth in his first interview with F.B.I. agents. Mr. Smith at first lied about his role, but later admitted to the conspiracy.
Apparently, those oft-stated cliches are shattered...have the "bashers" been right all along? Some apologists might want to re-think, eh? Or, we could attack the media, and these federal prosecutors, in order to preserve the myth?
Alternatively, how about reconsidering the efficacy of the entire war on drugs, and its corrupting effect on ALL segments of society. That might be a welcome change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070427/ZNYT02/704270893
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prosecutors Say Corruption in Atlanta Police Dept. Is Widespread
SHAILA DEWAN AND BRENDA GOODMAN
ATLANTA, April 26 — After the fatal police shooting of an elderly woman in a botched drug raid, the United States attorney here said Thursday that prosecutors were investigating a “culture of misconduct” in the Atlanta Police Department.
In court documents, prosecutors said Atlanta police officers regularly lied to obtain search warrants and fabricated documentation of drug purchases, as they had when they raided the home of the woman, Kathryn Johnston, in November, killing her in a hail of bullets.
Narcotics officers have admitted to planting marijuana in Ms. Johnston’s home after her death and submitting as evidence cocaine they falsely claimed had been bought at her house, according to the court filings.
Two of the three officers indicted in the shooting, Gregg Junnier and Jason R. Smith, pleaded guilty on Thursday to state charges including involuntary manslaughter and federal charges of conspiracy to violate Ms. Johnston’s civil rights.
“Former officers Junnier and Smith will also help us continue our very active ongoing investigation into just how wide the culture of misconduct that led to this tragedy extends within the Atlanta Police Department,” said David Nahmias, the United States attorney.
Asked how widespread such practices might be, Mr. Nahmias said investigators were looking at narcotics officers, officers who had once served in the narcotics unit and “officers that had never been in that unit but may have adopted that practice.”
The investigation has already led to scrutiny of criminal cases involving the indicted officers and others who may have used similar tactics. Paul Howard, the Fulton County district attorney, said his office was reviewing at least 100 cases involving the three officers, including 10 in which defendants were in jail.
If they continue to cooperate, Mr. Junnier, who retired after the shooting, faces a minimum of 10 years in prison and Mr. Smith, who resigned Thursday, faces 12 years.
The third officer, Arthur Tesler, declined a plea deal. He was indicted on charges of violation of oath by a public officer, making false statements and false imprisonment under color of legal process.
Mr. Tesler’s lawyer, John Garland, said his client was following his training when he put false claims in an affidavit.
Mr. Nahmias took a moment to dwell on what he said was the unusual nature of the officers’ offenses.
“The officers charged today were not corrupt in the sense that we have seen before,” he said. “They are not accused of seeking payoffs or trying to rob drug dealers or trying to protect gang members. Their goal was to arrest drug dealers and seize illegal drugs, and that’s what we want our police officers to do for our community.
“But these officers pursued that goal by corrupting the justice system, because when it was hard to do their job the way the Constitution requires, they let the ends justify their means.”
Mr. Nahmias said the statement in the plea agreement that officers cut corners in order to “be considered productive officers and to meet A.P.D.’s performance targets” reflected their perception of the department’s expectations.
The police chief, Richard Pennington, said that officers were not trained to lie and that they had no performance quotas. Two weeks ago, he announced changes to the narcotics squad, including increasing the unit’s size and more careful reviews of requests for so-called no-knock warrants like the one served on Ms. Johnston’s home.
“Let me assure you, if we find out any other officers have been involved in such egregious acts, they will be dealt with just as sternly as these other officers have been,” said Chief Pennington, who after the shooting asked for a review by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. “I assure you that we will not tolerate any officers violating the law and mistreating our citizens in this city.”
The death of Ms. Johnston, whose age is listed variously as 88 or 92, outraged Atlantans, brought simmering discontent with police conduct toward residents to a boil and led to the creation of a civilian review board for the Police Department.
The day she was killed, narcotics officers said, they arrested a drug dealer who said he could tell them where to recover a kilogram of cocaine, and pointed out Ms. Johnston’s modest green-trimmed house at 933 Neal Street.
Instead of hiring an informant to try to buy drugs at the house, the officers filed for a search warrant, claiming that drugs had been bought there from a man named Sam. Because they falsely claimed that the house was equipped with surveillance equipment, they got a no-knock warrant that allowed them to break down the front door.
First, according to court papers, they pried off the burglar bars and began to ram open the door. Ms. Johnston, who lived alone, fired a single shot from a .38-caliber revolver through the front door and the officers fired back, killing her.
After the shooting, they handcuffed her and searched the house, finding no drugs.
“She was without question an innocent civilian who was caught in the worst circumstance imaginable,” Mr. Howard, the district attorney, said at a news conference on Thursday. “When we learned of her death, all of us imagined our own mothers and our own grandmothers in her place, and the thought made us shudder.”
When no drugs were found, the cover-up began in earnest, according to court papers.
Officer Smith planted three bags of marijuana, which had been recovered earlier in the day in an unrelated search, in the basement. He called a confidential informant and instructed him to pretend he had made the drug buy described in the affidavit for the search warrant.
The three officers, Mr. Junnier, Mr. Smith and Officer Tesler met to concoct a story before talking with homicide detectives, the court filings say.
Though the three met several more times, prosecutors said, Mr. Junnier admitted the truth in his first interview with F.B.I. agents. Mr. Smith at first lied about his role, but later admitted to the conspiracy.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Has the officer that plead guilty gotten some guarantee he won't end up in the general prison population over this? If not he is in for a hard time in prison.
"And in other news, a new study shows that rainfall causes the ground to be wet..."
It would be interesting to see which city had the worst corruption - Atlanta or Memphis.
Fox News posted this:
"2 Officers Plead Guilty to Manslaughter After 3 Indicted in Botched Raid That Killed Elderly Woman"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268674,00.html
This is from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268674,00.html and it gives a better explanation of the episode vs. would be multiple hits by the woman's bullets.
coltrane679
Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
- Messages
- 377
Contrary to what the moderators here seem to think, disliking cops is not irrational. They are the leading edge of excessive government power in this country for 95% of the populace (only those in jail or in the armed forces have other masters tending over them). The fact that they are "dedicated" and "following orders" only excuses so much (see Nuremberg).
This episode, with its excessive, self-righteous use of force, and now the exposed corruption inherent in the War on Drugs (just like the War on Alcohol produced), is just another example of why I neither like nor trust cops generally. If your Uncle Bill was a "great cop", fine--but we are talking systemically here. And the system is bad and broken.
This episode, with its excessive, self-righteous use of force, and now the exposed corruption inherent in the War on Drugs (just like the War on Alcohol produced), is just another example of why I neither like nor trust cops generally. If your Uncle Bill was a "great cop", fine--but we are talking systemically here. And the system is bad and broken.
River Wraith
Member
IIRC, she fired a shot through the door and hit nothing. The cops were shot by each other. It always amazes me how some cops just fire shots off at random.
Spartacus451
Member
Link to the source website for the article please.
pcosmar
member
adweisbe
Post #40 just above has a link.
There are several others through the thread.
Post #40 just above has a link.
There are several others through the thread.
River Wraith
Member
Selfdfenz
Member
bowline
Very well put.
S-
Very well put.
S-
Deanimator
Member
Chicago would give Baghdad a run for its money, from institutionalized torture of suspects, to criminal attacks on citizens by offduty police, to the promotion to detective of an officer who shot (on videotape) an unarmed man in the head.
Do a Google search on Chicago + torture + Burge to see what's REALLY going on there. If you go to the Chicago Sun Times website, Carol Marin has a VERY interesting op ed piece on the recent history of the Chicago PD. Half way through it, you start to wonder if Uday Hussein had ever been the Police Superintendent.
And by the way, the State's Attorney during the worst of the torture?
Dick Daley.
Chicago PD has a long history of brutality, criminal behavior and corruption that is going to be hard to change, even if the politicians wanted it to change. Since there is no desire at all on the part of those running Chicago to change it, change seems unlikely.
One can only hope that Daley and his minions get indicted and convicted before a democratic president gets elected and fires the US attorney in Chicago to protect one of the most corrupt political regimes ever.
One can only hope that Daley and his minions get indicted and convicted before a democratic president gets elected and fires the US attorney in Chicago to protect one of the most corrupt political regimes ever.
Deanimator
Member
I'm from Chicago and haven't got any illusions about the fundamental nature of the Chicago PD, but when I read the Carol Marin piece referenced in my previous post, even I was shocked.
The family of a guy shot and killed by the Chicago PD recently collected in excess of $5,000,000. He was a paraplegic, shot to pieces by officers after being pulled over for an alleged traffic violation. Witnesses say he was riddled with bullets as he sat, hands in the air, trying to explain that he couldn't exit the car as they demanded. Police claimed that he pointed a gun at them. A gun was "found" in the car... completely devoid of fingerprints or blood, even though the victim was shot multiple [in excess of ten?] times, including through the back of his gun hand. The department ruled it a "good" shoot. This happened on a street where I used to live, when I was in grade school. You don't have to be a criminal, or even have criminal associations in order to have this sort of thing done to you by the Chicago PD. Apart from some posters on a Chicago cop's blog, I haven't seen anybody allege any wrongdoing on the part of that female bartender. And as far as that blog http://www.secondcitycop.blogspot.com goes, there have been some VERY interesting posts there, including more than a couple of attacks on the female bartender, as well as prosecutors for charging the perpetrator with a felony, and the superintendant for demoting the Watch Captain who engaged in harassment of the media and preferential treatment toward the perpetrator.
The Chicago PD is NEVER going to change. This is for two reasons:
1. People in Chicago LIKE it that way. They not only tolerate, but feel comfortable with this sort of thing, the way Iraqi Sunnis liked Saddam Hussein. Chicagoans can no more imagine the absence of police corruption and violence than they can imagine air without oxygen in it. In Chicago, you've either got your foot on somebody's neck, or you've got somebody's foot on yours. Equality before the law is a bigger fantasy there than Bigfoot, Nessie and the Jersey Devil.
2. Police criminality is tolerated at the very highest levels of city government. As I said, Dick Daley was the State's Attorney when Jon Burge was running his Gestapo-like torture chamber. Anybody who doubts that one hand is washing the other, is to put it charitably, "credulous".
Tezcatlipoca
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 96
Get the chamber ready.
Maybe we can fast track these guys to hell.
Maybe we can fast track these guys to hell.
- Status
