Australia's ahead of the U.S.,,,,

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Route666, I should report him? He's already been reported to the Ministers firearms advisor. If the Legislature aren't willing to haul him in what do you expect will work, complain to Dave Madden the Assistant Police Commissioner who ordered an arguably illegal search and seizure of property in 190,000 homes?

You don't think people should own full auto, because you don't want one? I don't want an airpistol or a Hammerli. Should they be banned as well?

BTW I'm legal to own full auto. :)

Firearms are specifically illegal for self defence because our Prime Minister hates them and mandated it in the 1996 legislation they he forced on the States. He gets around with an armed 14 man security team of course.

Security guards are the way the elite and wealthy obtain armed defence. If you can't afford the cost of a security guard then you are obviously not worthy of the right to defend yourself. Note that an individual with the same training and insurance as a security guard cannot carry a weapon, you have to be employed as one.

Safe storage requirements were implemented to enforce this, if you have it locked up then you can't use it. The approved gun lockers can be pulled apart in 2 minutes with a hammer and chisel or a cordless drill. Pop riveted cabinets don't prevent theft, they prevent 'unauthorised access' in time of need, that is the intention. You put the cart before the horse there.

I will be satisfied with laws that are there to punish those who harm others, not that restrict essential liberty, including the right to self defence, the right to be secure in ones home and posessions from arbitrary search and siezure.

If you have your power meter checked you don't have the local plod enter your home and arrest you not having a lock on it and disconnect your cables, with a minimum six month wait to get it reconnected if you beat the charges.

I remember the days when I didn't have to lock up my firearms, when I could purchase a gun without a permit to acquire, when firearms made prior to 1900 didn't require a licence, semi autos and pump actions were freely available, if I wanted to stick a gun under my bed I could and firearms crime was a big deal. Now it's commonplace, because they have been made to be bad and scary. Which attracts criminals.

Back in the 60s a couple of London Bobbies were killed with an unlicenced, unregistered Browning pistol. At the subsequent inquiry the local police chief called for the registration of shotguns because the sawn off shotgun was the weapon of choice of criminals. The sawn off shottie had not been reported in a crime in that year. The next year they were commonplace, because criminals wanted to use what, according to media reports, was their weapon of choice. Restricting firearms and making them more unconfrontable makes them more valuable, and hence more likely to be used by the criminal class.

Re porn: Your cry of unawareness rings false. Anyone with an email address is aware of porn. Exposing kids to firearms teachs responsibility,safety awareness and respect for life. Porn teachs that women exist for the sexual use of men. Unless it's homosexual porn, child porn or beastiality where the user and usee may be different. Wether you get a kick out of porn or not, it's purpose is to stimulate sexual sensation. It is at the low end of the scale. What's wrong with kids finding out in the old fashioned way, by finding someone they like, learning how to kiss and moving on from there?

Re having no vote. In 1988 I registered to vote, two weeks later I helped vote out the Unsworth Government that was running on a platform of banning private possession of firearms. I fought a rear guard action on the latest NSW legislation, helping to keep the damage down. I help run three clubs, one rifle range and I'm the secretary of a state association. All you have to do to be effective is to put your hand up and be willing to work.

Freewheeling, Robert Hughes is the standard expat: He hates Australia and snipes away at us from overseas while hoping to get his nephew by marriage elected as our first President. I haven't read the book, but I would take it with a grain of salt knowing his atitude to this country.

Bruce the guy in SA you are thinking of used a double barrel 12 gauge resting on his walking frame to blow away a goblin who had set fire to his house the week previously. No charges laid.

The guy with the .303 was the spokesman from SSAA Vic who used a SKS back in the '90s on a repeat home invader. IIRC correctly he beat the attempted murder and malicious wounding charges but was convicted of unsafe storage and I think unauthorised use of a firearm. IIRC he also lost his house in the subsequent lawsuit. I'd like to be wrong on that matter.

Ryder I'm fully aware the next siezure will use the updated files.

Re the bill of rights of 1688. A piece of legislation can be nullified by another piece of legislation. My school had an original copy, sent to one of the county sherrifs. I wonder if anyone else knew what a treasure they had. Re per 'condition' it meant that the nobles had better rights than the peasants and catholics where to be excluded.

Fumegator isn't there a similar clause regarding subject to the police power in the illinois constitution, allowing Daly to get away with his actions?

Route 666 the Australian constitution dosn't guarantee rights. In the late 80's the Hawke Government attempted to implement a minature Bill of Rights (better than nothing) at a referendum. It failed to pass because the then Opposition Leader, now Prime Minister opposed it. He never changes his spots.

Another detailed discussion of firearms and crime is at http://www.ssaa.org.au/FailedExperiment.pdf

Ken
 
Australian Crime & Home Invasion Rates

Esky:

Thanks for the Kopel article. It was interesting and informative, but didn't have the stats I was looking for. The contention is that home invasions, and also "property" crimes have increased. I just want to see the stats on that. It is often claimed that DC has a high crime rate because guns from Virginia are easily available and can be smuggled in. I can't think of any place more isolated than Oz (if any place is isolated in the jet age) so it's about the purest social experiment one could devise to test the theory that gun control works. If property crime and home invasions are increasing at a rate higher than before the gun laws then even if you can't prove a causal relationship between the gun laws and increased crime you can reasonably infer it.
 
Radagast:

Freewheeling, Robert Hughes is the standard expat: He hates Australia and snipes away at us from overseas while hoping to get his nephew by marriage elected as our first President. I haven't read the book, but I would take it with a grain of salt knowing his atitude to this country.
Click to expand...

I certainly did not get the impression that The Fatal Shore was anti-Australian. It was probably the most fascinating book I've read in 20 years. I've also heard him speak at the Wilson Center, and he did a fairly decent documentary on modern Australia recently. But it's always a bad idea to cleave to one source.

I'm still looking for recent data on home invasion. I've had one anti-gun Aussie tell me that prior to the gun ban not many people had self-defensive weapons anyway. So, I wondered, if that's true why all the fuss about confiscations? And they don't appear to be willing to acknowledge that either the failure to deter crime, or potential increases in crime, invalidate the policy. They're poised to argue that "poverty" is the cause of increases in crime rates. What a damn nightmare!
 
To Mr. Threeseven.

I am new to this forum and thread, don't know you or any of the other posters, but feel compelled to offer my opinion, FWIW, to this discussion. Admittedly, I am a dinosaur, a throwback if you will. ( my wife kept trying to throw me back, and I kept getting back on the hook )

I was taught and have believed for many years, a man's home was his castle. If one breaks in and steals, that person is the criminal, not the homeowner. He/she is also fair game for extreme measures to protect one's home. We have this same mindset in our country ( USA ), as you do. Keep everything locked up, and if something still gets stolen, it's basically your fault. I have a hard time with this, as well as with politicians that preach this nonsense.

I certainly understand your position of trying to make the best of a poor situation, and am not going to cast stones to try and enlighten you. I would suggest, the buggers that voted in these 'gun control' laws, be forthwith voted from office. It can be done, witness our removal from office of most LIB DIM GGs that voted for the AWB and the Brady Bill, in '94. I don't presume to know your political climate in Australia, but political critters living in your larger cities, obviously have little concept of those living in an non urban setting.

My best to you, Sir, and all the honest and law abiding gun owners 'down under'.
 
Silver Lining

One enormous silver lining provided by the Australian experience is an object lesson in the concequences of firearm registration. The notion that it's, by definition, innocuous has been rendered laughable.
 
Re: Silver lining

Freewheeling wrote;

One enormous silver lining provided by the Australian experience is an object lesson in the concequences of firearm registration. The notion that it's, by definition, innocuous has been rendered laughable.
Click to expand...

Quite true, but that doesn't stop the LIB DIM GGs from trying to impose their nefarious ideals upon the rest of us. Unfortunately, there are far too many gun owners that seem to agree with them and their 'reasonable restrictions'.
 
Fumegator isn't there a similar clause regarding subject to the police power in the illinois constitution, allowing Daly to get away with his actions?
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know, although I guess it's as good (or bad) as any reason in their minds. It's funny that they'll exploit any loophole that can, but when we do it we're opportunistic bastards. :rolleyes:

Very interesting post, Radagast. ;)

Wes
 
A ute?? That's short for utility vehicle ...... what you in the US call a truck. A cab with 2 or more seats and a tray behind.

Spinner
 
Freewheeling, Hughes was the driver at fault in a car crash that crippled him and a couple of other people. His blood alcahol reading was several times the legal limit when they cut him from the wreck, which took several hours to do.

He wasn't charged at the time because his lawyer brought up the defence that they couldn't prove that his BAC had been that high at the time of the crash.
The guys he crippled subsequently tried to blackmail him and were charged.
He subsequently made racial slurs about the judge in the case, comments in the press about the Australian justice system being bent, that the 'tall poppy system' was trying to bring him down, etc, etc and that he was an American at heart and he would never return to Australia (failing to admit he faces jail for contempt of court if he ever shows his nose here again, not to mention charges relating to the accident).

Admittedly The Fatal Shore was in print many years before this, but his attitude matches that of Germaine Greer and a bunch of other ex Aussies who feel they are part of the intellectual elite: They need to run Australia down to feel accepted in London or New York. Funnily enough this is an example of what we call 'the cultural cringe', the idea that if it is from OZ it isn't as good as from Britain or the USA. Those of us who live here seem to have gotten over that, those that left and never contributed to making the country what it is today seems to hold onto it, while beating the drum against what they remember from their childhood. I've seen something similar in immigrants here. An example was a couple of Turkish origin who objected to their daughter having an anglo boyfriend. Then they went home to Turkey after 30 years and found out the country they remembered didn't exist anymore and that they missed 'home'. They don't object to the Aussie boy friend anymore. I think Australia has left Hughes behind. His relations are pretty powerfully connected people however, with fingers in economics, law and political pies.

The SSAA website used to have home invasion statistics, IIRC correctly they went up 500% between 1996 and 1998. 1996 is when the new lawas were announced, in 1997 they were implemented. If I can find the stats I'll post them at a later date.

On the idea that Aussies haven't owned guns for self defence prior to the laws being brought in, I call BS. In Tasmania there was no registration or licencing. In QLD licencing had only been brought in a year earlier, 'genuine reasons' hadn't been introduced.

In NSW they wouldn't issue a licence for self defence, but the licence came through with 'any lawful purpose' on the conditions.

In NSW there where 250,000 licence holders prior to the new regime of minimum attendances at ranges, etc, to prove competition requirements.
After 1997 the number dropped to 160,000 and has climbed since then to 190,000.

A few years ago the SSAA surveyed it's members. 25% gave self defence as a reason for owning firearms.

A ute is normally a sedan front with a tray rear. Not as large as an American SUV, but with better handling and suspension. Most tradesmen use them.
We call SUVs 4WDs.
Ken
 
Bruce the guy in SA you are thinking of used a double barrel 12 gauge resting on his walking frame to blow away a goblin who had set fire to his house the week previously. No charges laid.
Click to expand...

Ta for that, mate -- the Alzheimer's bites deeper every day. :what: :D
 
Nice post, Radagast.....

"You don't think people should own full auto, because you don't want one? I don't want an airpistol or a Hammerli. Should they be banned as well?"
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This quote brings to mind nearly all the Australian shotgun club members I've met.:(


I believe the security "audit" being conducted in N.S.W. at the moment has the verification of safe storage as its stated purpose, but the fact is the NSW firearms registry wants the serial numbers to improve their database.

Not a very encouraging sign, is it?:mad:
 
Radagast:

but his attitude matches that of Germaine Greer and a bunch of other ex Aussies who feel they are part of the intellectual elite: They need to run Australia down to feel accepted in London or New York. Funnily enough this is an example of what we call 'the cultural cringe', the idea that if it is from OZ it isn't as good as from Britain or the USA.
Click to expand...

I'll take what you say under advisement, and I certainly know what you mean about a "literary and intellectual elite." It's a bit out of hand, I think, even in the US. When I was in grad school I was a research assistant to a very well known author, who was in his eighties. I used to drive him places, and he never complained about the fact that I had such an old beater of a car. Didn't even bother him when I had plastic over one of the windows after the car had been broken into. Then the car kept stalling and it happened once just as we were leaving the office. This old guy got out of the car, got around back, and started pushing this old clunker. Scared me half to death. I could just see the headlines, where he'd killed himself pushing my old car to get it started.

So I knew at least one of these "elites" who didn't really think of himself that way.

But he's a pretty rare bird. Most aren't like him. I guess if someone had had the foresight to tell me that the country was run by elites when I was a kid I might have planned my life better. But I was middle class, and just figured everyone was like me. I mean, most people are. This great man I knew was the son of an immigrant printer. He said he had failed as a factory worker after he graduated HS, and the foreman suggested he go back to school to find some other kind of work. His whole life was a series of "successful failures." He'd try something, fail at it, but the failure would lead him to something that he was successful at. He's written about 50 times as many books as Robert Hughes (literally), and I don't think he ever thought of himself as much more than a printer's son. Now, that's what America is about!

I went to Australia right after I completed my degree, as a kind of reward. I had a girlfriend there who was Australian and said she sort of thought of Australia as a "cub scout" version of the US. I dunno. That strikes me as not appreciating what you have. We have nothing like the Great Barrier Reef. We have antelope, but no 'roos. We have wilderness, but no expanse like the outback. It's... different. Definitely not a "cub scout" US. But I suppose that's the cultural cringe you're talking about. Oh yeah, we have nothing like Dame Edna.

Not to get off topic, but I'm just sick about Spain neutering itself over the al Qaeda attack. Wasn't that something? Geez, I never saw that coming. Bullfighters my ass! Makes me want to throw up.
 
Actually I can see what occurred there.

I could be wrong, I don't follow the news from the Europe that much, but I can see how it occurred.

1) Spanish Government backs invasion of Iraq, at a guess a large percentage of the population, including people who normally vote conservative, consider this to be a war crime.

2) The media at the time probably trumpeted the idea that Spain would be more at risk of a terrorist attack.

3) 48 hours before an election that was already in the balance there is a major terrorist attack in Madrid. The Interior Minister, with no evidence to support him blames ETA. (My guess originally was ETA too, as the Spanish Govt. recently outlawed the their political wing, pushing them back to armed violence as their main option. Anyone think the IRA wouldn't start operations again if Shin Fein (sp?) was kicked out of parliament?)

4) Evidence pointing to Muslims is found.

5) Huge rallys against terrorism are held around the country, consolidating public opinion.

6) A percentage of the populace that would normally vote conservative go into the polling booths blaming the Government for creating the scenario that lead to the bombing and believing they lied about the perpetrators for political gain. They vote the government down.

7) The socialists had already stated they would pull their forces out of Iraq if elected and said that they would hold to that promise.

I don't think the pull out from Iraq is a result of the bombings, I think the fall of the Aznar government is.

On Hughes, looking back at my posts, I have been pretty harsh on him based on his public statements in recent years. Potentially his books from 20 years ago may not have been authored with his current biases in mind.

On the other hand, Peter Singer (animal Liberation founder) Col (Pol) Pot former head gun banner in NSW and Editor of the New York Post, you can keep. :)
 
Radagast:

I've decided to send you a private message about Spain rather that pull the thread OT.

I hope there's a turnaround on guns in Australia, but it'll probably take awhile. You might consider using the same incremental approach as the opposition, in the other direction of course.
 
Mindset

What a fascinating thread. It epitomizes the mindset of the subject
of the governent as opposed to a free man. Not to bash our Aussie
members, and particularly threeseven...but just pointing out the subjective
differences in the two.

The subject accepts that his government is better able to protect him from himself than he is. The freeman reserves the right to make his own
decisions in such matters.

The subject is "granted" his liberties, and quietly accepts the situation when they are revoked...while the freeman understands that he was born with them and will fight to keep them.

The subject has been indoctrinated in the notion that his guns are only acceptable for sporting use. The freeman knows that sport has nothing to do with it. Our 2nd Amendment states that we have the right to keep and
bear arms. It doesn't say that we have the privelege to keep and bear sporting goods.

The subject feels that the governing body is his friend, and is making these
decisions for his "own good". The freeman understands that when a governing body works to revoke his right to keep and bear arms, or any other God-given right, that the agenda can't be in his best interest.

The subject feels that all laws are morally right. If it's legal, then it's okay.
The freeman understands that "Legal" doesn't necessarily make it right.
He also knows that "Illegal" doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Sensless rules are generally ignored in America, or at best, there is
feigned compliance. How many Americans would have shown the
inspectors their safely-stored firearms while carrying one under a shirt
or coat tail? It's a fine old American tradition to resist tyranny at every
turn, whether it's done in a quiet, subtle manner or blatantly in-your-face.

When the day comes in Australia that all owners must turn in their weapons, they'll probably comply at a rate of about 99%. When that day
comes in America, there won't be very much compliance, but there will be a run on shovels, post hole diggers, large PVC pipe and silicone sealant...
for the ones that don't already have their supplies of such things at hand.

Fascinating!

Tuner
 
Pretty spot on Tuner.

Of course, a hell of a lot of Aussies have never complied with the legislation. The gun show prior to the 1996 semi auto ban coming into effect, something like three tonne of dessicant was sold. :)

The biggy is that if you aren't licenced you generally can't use it unless you live out in the boondocks. We now have random searchs of cars and pedestrians for weapons. The carrying of pocket knives is illegal. And so it goes......

I would sat at a guess there are as many unlicenced firearms owners as there are licenced shooters.

With a soaring firearms crime rate among the criminal class, more and more shooters label themselves as LAFOs "law abiding firearms owners", so they deliberately exclude the unlicenced from their group as unacceptable people. The point many seem to forget is that if we went back to the days of no registration or licence, they wouldn't be beaking the law anymore. Afterall they are still normal citizens, with jobs family and mortgages, just like the rest of us.

Freewheeling, we can only try. As the current Prime Minature has a near religious hatred of guns and his deputy's brother is the spokesman for the Aussie gun control movement, the conservatives are dead deal for shooters.
The socialists don't particularly like guns either, but they don't have a mono mania about it. Most shooters seem prepared to take any economic damage that they may cause by giving them a run in office in return for the conservatives being forced to dump their current leadership. Wether the Sporting Shooters Association will try to mobilise the non politically active members at the coming elections I don't know. They have been trying to 'negotiate' for the last eight years with no success.

Ken
 
I think you're right, Radagast.....

"I would sat at a guess there are as many unlicenced firearms owners as there are licenced shooters."
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Particularly among the rural population. Just a couple of years ago, I was living in central Queensland and the number of folks who "never got around to registering it" surprised me.:)



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"The socialists don't particularly like guns either, but they don't have a mono mania about it. Most shooters seem prepared to take any economic damage that they may cause by giving them a run in office in return for the conservatives being forced to dump their current leadership."
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It's the Greens and Democrats, bosom buddies of the Labour left, that I worry about. Their hatred of firearms seems to be infectious.

The economic damage a Labour government will do is bad enough, but the anti-US / anti-war faction will isolate Australia if given the chance.
Still, the malevolent midget has to go. :fire:


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"Sporting Shooters Association will try to mobilise the non politically active members at the coming elections I don't know. They have been trying to 'negotiate' for the last eight years with no success."
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SSAA and its fossilised leadership seem to be perpetually several steps behind the other side. "Mobilising the membership" for them consists of a "Lock up your firearms" campaign. :barf:
 
Non-Compliant Aussies

Of course, a hell of a lot of Aussies have never complied with the legislation.

It is furiously to hope. The Aussies share not only a common languge and heritage with Americans, they are just plain nice folks. If nothing else comes of the prevailing foolishness Down Under, an immigration of
Austrailians to America might net me some fine new neighbors. Think I'll
take'em shootin'.:cool:
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The gun show prior to the 1996 semi auto ban coming into effect, something like three tonne of dessicant.

:D Excellent! Thing is, that a similar legislation here would create
a dessicant shortage because 3 tons wouldn't cover a small city.:D
There was a RUMOR...of an ammunition tax in the works, and over the course of 3 months, billions of rounds of ammo was absorbed from
dealer's shelves and warehouses into station wagons and pickup trucks.
I was witness to one father and son team in a supply house in XXXXX Virginia loading up enough into the back of a Ford truck to put it down onto
the overload springs. The guy at the counter said it was their second trip in a month, and they had UPS trucks comin' in daily to restock the store.

Yessir...A FINE old American tradition. Want to create a black market? Outlaw it in America.:cool:

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Freewheeling, compound bows will be banned by mid year as well.

Tuner, in 1996, the day before every licence was canceled and all shooters had to reapply for new ones, the que in one gun shop was six deep along a 20ft counter to purchase new firearms. I was out of the sport at that time, but I got back into it in reaction to government oppression.
The pro gun rallies had more attendees than the anti-vietnam war marches in the 70s.

Ken
 
Among the Bourgeoisophobes

I don't know how many have already read this seminal article by David Brooks, but it gets to the heart of a lot of things, including the origins of the anti-gun sentiment, which really has very little to do with controlling crime. It may also suggest a political line of attack.
 
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