Auto-indexing speedloader?

[JohnKSa]

It should be possible to build a speedloader that auto-indexes using the star.

It would have a piece that stuck out past the nose of the bullets.

That piece would be a round "corral" that fit roughly over the star.

The "corral" would be spring loaded to the rest of the speed loader.

When you pressed the back of the speed loader, the body of the speed loader would move forward, but at the same time it would rotate and at some point an "anti-star" inside the "corral" would come into contact with the star and would catch and index to the teeth on the star.

At that point, the rotation would stop with the shells lined up to the chambers. A little more pressure would push the shells into the chambers and release them.

It should be nearly as fast as full-moon clips to use. Admittedly a little more complicated.

The speed loader would have to control the front of the shells better than existing speed loaders or the rotation would cause them to swing outward a bit due to centripetal acceleration.

[Thanks for moving this to the proper forum...]

 

[38SnubFan]

John,

As good as your idea sounds in theory, I'm not sure that it's exactly practical or necessary compared to current speedloaders. I currently own an EAA Windicator in 38 Spl. and use a HKS DS-A speedloader for my reload. I've found that when I lower the speedloader against my cylinder, the rounds pretty much line up and start to move into the chambers with no more than a slight turn of the hand. As soon as they start to go into place, I turn the knob and they all drop right into the chambers without fail.

HKS has been making speedloaders for a long time. They have proven very reliable to me, using the same manufacturing method they always have.

Again, in theory the concept is great, but I think you could overcome this issue of cartridges not lining up quickly enough by simply practicing your reloading technique. I had the same problem for a little bit, but some practice with the gun and speedloader cured that.

Sincerely,
MW

 

[sigma40sw]

The fastest loading with a speed loader, is when you use a round nose bullet. I have been shooting IDPA with my S&W 65 and enjoying it.
I am using a Berry's 158gr RN "Plated" bullet. It is amazing how clean a revolver stays when you don't feed it a greasy lead bullet.

I chose to use Safariland Comp 1 or Comp 2 loaders. The rounds are released by pushing the loader down on the center pin. This feature allows me to load with my weak hand as you don't have to hold the cylinder to stop it from rotating if you are twisting a knob.

Sigma

 

[JohnKSa]

I've never done much speedloader work with round nose ammo. I have tried with JHPs and they don't seem to index very well for me with any speedloaders I've tried.

How does the HKS DS-A speed loader work with JHP ammo?

 

[38SnubFan]

Works well for me

JohnKSa,

The HKS speedloader I used works very well for me with the Hornady 158-gr. JHP rounds I carry. I honestly think it's a matter of technique, but I picked up on it pretty quickly. I just kind of "jiggle" my hand until the cartridges line up and start to drop into the chambers. The DS-A refers to the style and size of the speedloader (mine also fits Colt Detective Special as well as others).

sigma40sw, I've heard the Safariland speedloaders work nice, but I haven't found any locally without special ordering one to be shipped to me. However, I use my weak hand to load my revolver with the twist-knob-style HKS and have no problems, for the middle finger of my right hand is holding the cylinder steady to keep it from moving even if I'm hand-loading cartridges.

I personally don't like "hold with your weak hand, load with strong hand" technique. I've seen it done, but that's too much hand switching for me, as I prefer to keep a firm hold on my weapon at all times.

Hope this helps some.
-MW

 

[Poohgyrr]

FWIW,

I do my best with Safariland Comp II's. The grooves in these speedloaders automatically line everything up and the rounds go right into the cylinder. Some bullet profiles are easier than others. For myself, these Comp II's are noticably smoother and faster than the well built HKS's. Then again, someone recently mentioned not having seen a stopwatch in a shootout.

 

[JohnKSa]

The grooves in these speedloaders automatically line everything up and the rounds go right into the cylinder.

Where are the grooves? And how do they line things up? No one mentions anything like that in any of the reviews I've read and I can't find a picture that's good enough to show any grooves...

 

[38SnubFan]

JohnKSa,

I have to agree with you on that question. How do they line up (index)? That would be like having a magazine that automatically lined up and indexed itself to the mag well on an semi-auto. Last I knew, you lined up by paying attention to where your cartridges/magazine is in relation to your cylinder chambers/magazine well.

Just asking here. Poohgyrr, maybe you could clarify? If I can better understand you, I might be tempted to order one of the Safariland speedloaders to see for myself. Also, how much did yours cost? I paid about $10 for my HKS and feel it "fits the bill" more than adequately for the price.

-MW

 

[JohnKSa]

I might be tempted to order one of the Safariland speedloaders

Ditto!

 

[Poohgyrr]

This is easier to show than to explain...

On the sides of Comp II's are "grooves" or "flutes" or whatever they're called, which is where my fingers go when I grab the speedloader to reload. Maybe I should mention that I am holding the Comp II by its sides, and absoultely not by the big knob on top. Holding it by the sides lines up two things:

First, my fingers line up with the flutes in my revolver cylinder, which automatically makes the second thing happen,

Second, the rounds also line up to go right into the chambers of the cylinder.

Both of these happen at the same time.

With practice, the rounds insert right into the cylinder with absolutely no hesitation at all. And with Safariland Comp II speedloaders, you just continue pushing the speedloader like you are already doing, and the rounds are released into the cylinder. With practice, this happens real smooth, which becomes real quick.

The HKS's are well built, but I have to stop pushing & twist the knob to release the rounds. This takes me more time. Plus the rounds :::wiggle::: so much it takes me more time to line them up right in the first place so they go inside the cyinder. The Comp II's don't have this problem- they just line right up & go in a lot smoother for me.

With my old 686, reloads became really smooth & quick.

All this said, I don't know that the time difference is noticible in the real world, and they don't make Comp II's for J & N frames....

On the cost, HKS's can be had for about $6 to 7 on sale, but I don't remember seeing the Safariland Conp II's go for less than about $8 to $10.

Here is a link to a pic showing the grooves in the side of the comp II's:

http://shop.optemize.com/shop/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Holsters&Category_Code=MCompII

 

[9mmepiphany]

i use my safariland comp II's the same way. the flutes are part of the product improvement between the comp I and comp II...to allow better index.

i practiced, back when i carried a wheelgun as a duty weapon, reloading without looking at the cylinder/speedloader. it started as a night/darkness shooting technique as i was mostly working the graveyard shift at the time. i found it also helped my reload speed in PPC competition.

i reload with the gun/cylinder in my left hand and the speedloader in my right...also faster...and place my left thumb in a flute of the cylinder. my right index finger finds my left thumb and ...viola...the bullets are aligned with the chambers.

hope this helps...it really is easier to show than describe

 

[38SnubFan]

I guess it would be easier to show than explain in text. If possible, do you have pictures you could post of this?

I also tried the "hold the gun in left hand, reload with right hand" technique. Although it is faster for me to line up and drop the cartridges into the cylinder this way, the whole reload process (open cylinder, empty cylinder, drop in fresh cartridges from speedloader, close cylinder) seems to work better if I'm maintaining my grip the entire time with my right hand during a reload rather than switching hands to reload, then switching the gun back to my strong hand again to resume fire. (Keep in mind this is my CCW carry gun and I'm considering the risk, under stress, of dropping the gun during a reload because of switching hands.) I guess to each their own, and this technique works best for me.

I do like how you mentioned that the Safariland keeps a tighter grip on the cartridges, thus eliminating "wiggle", and also the fluting allowing for a easier line-up. This makes is something I will definitely try out. I figure at worst, I can always send it back for a refund if I'm not satisfied.

I think I'm going to check on where I can get one and if they make one for my revolver (EAA Windicator .38 Spl., HKS model for this will also fit a Colt Det. Spec.)

Keep me posted

-MW

 

[scott45b]

This is an interesting post! As I understand it, JohnKSa, you would corral or index on the star for proper alignment, rotate the cartridges in alignment and then dump the cartridges in the chambers.

However:

1. If you index on the star, you must have something that captures the star and overlaps both sides of each leg of the star.
2. The area of "overlap" is the chambers for the cartridges! How can you insert your fresh cartridges when you have something blocking the path!
3. If you begin with a longer speedloader than the current ones, your loading time will increase, not decrease! i.e. loading .357 mag vs .38 short colt.

This is why moonclips are so fast, no extra added length, bullets that index on the charge holes, and no extra mechanisms to mess with.

 

[JohnKSa]

You're right, I wasn't very clear... When I said the star, I meant only the part of the star that the hand/pawl contacts to push the cylinder around, not the entire star.

 

[scott45b]

JohnKSa:

I don't understand why you would want to try and index on a very small "blind" target such as the ratchet, when you can index on a larger, IMHO, rather obvious target, the charge holes themselves. In the seminars I have taught on product design and project management, I instruct the students to build a prototype to test their idea. This is an item where having a prototype will either prove or disprove your concept.

Remember: "One experiment is worth ten thousand expert opinions"

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't understand why you would want to try and index on a very small "blind" target such as the ratchet, when you can index on a larger, IMHO, rather obvious target, the charge holes themselves.

If you're asking is it easier to slip something over the ratchet than it is to line up the bullets to the charge holes, then I would say yes. It's not possible to have a rotational error when you slip something over the ratchet while you have to have everything lined up properly (rotationally speaking) to get the bullets to go into the holes. Also, the ratchet is bigger than the charge holes and there's only one ratchet.

If you're asking is it easier to index to the ratchet teeth, then yes again--because the device would do that automatically.

 

[Poohgyrr]

38SnubFan:

I don't really have any way to post pics, sorry. I reload like 9mm posted, and you might be able to find a local old copper or maybe NRA shooter who uses this method to show you. On the Windicator, Comp II's for K frame Smiths and Detective Specials work on each other as well. So if the Dick Special & Windicator HKS's work on each other, maybe the Comp II's (K frame or Dick Special) will on your Windicator.

 

[38SnubFan]

Poohgyrr,

I reload like 9mm posted, and you might be able to find a local old copper or maybe NRA shooter who uses this method to show you.

I work with a corrections officer who uses the same method you do. Unfortunately, although I am a right-handed shooter and use my right hand to use tools, etc., I write with my left hand. Thus the dexterity of my left hand allows me to better control the speedloader in the method I use. I actually sat here and attempted to do standard reload, and found my cartridges hitting the floor because my right hand twisted the knob on the HKS speedloader too soon.

I also explained to the corrections officer and another co-worker of mine who is also in law enforcement that I prefer this method because I maintain retention of the gun by the grip the whole time, which is essential in armed self-defense. They agreed with me and suggested that whichever method your most comfortable with is the one you're most likely to be succesful with under the stress of "armed combat".

Thanks for your suggestion though, as it is a good one for most shooters. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work for me. :banghead:

I will be checking further on the Safariland Comp II. I'm going to check their website now and maybe even send an e-mail to their support team to check on this.

Many happy regards,
Matt

 

[9mmepiphany]

another advantage of the comp II iss that you can't "drop rounds" except in the chambers. the speedloader doesn't release the rounds until the bullets are aligned and the center "post" contacts the middle of the star.

when using loaders without flutes (dades when shooting PPC) i would just slip the tips of my fingers past the loader until it would index between the cases of two rounds. once again, when index finger finds opposing thumb the rounds are aligned with the chambers.

neither technique works with the hks loaders if you grab them by the release knob

 

[Plinkerton]

I have both the HKS and the Comp II for my 686. The HKS is noticeably slower for me. I reload by switching hands, and one thing I noticed that seems to make it faster is that you can empty the shells with your left (weak) hand, while you are grabbing your speedloader with your other hand.

As you switch the gun over to your left hand, you open the cylinder latch. As you take it in your left hand, you push open the cylinder with your middle and ring finger. As you do this, the gun turns so the front of the cylinder is pointing towards the ground. Use your other fingers to hold the gun. You then push the extractor rod with your thumb as you grab your speedloader with your other hand, flip the empty gun back, and reload as you do this. (I hope that all makes sense.)

It seems, that if you didn't switch hands, you would have to eject the empties with your left (weak) hand, while you held the gun in your right hand, THEN you would have to grab for your speedloader.

Are you able to empty with your strong hand only? If you can, (I can't) then, this would be a moot point. It seems impossible to do, because you would still be gripping the gun.

To me though, that seems to be a big benefit to the switching hands method.

I'm sure we are talking about fractions of a second, so I don't necessarily think one way is better than the other, but I have only ever felt comfortable switching hands.

 

[38SnubFan]

Plinkerton,

Thanks for the written-out instructions on the "switching hands" reload technique. After reading it and a couple practice tries (holding the speedloader by the rounds and not the release knob), I've succesfully figured out the technique within a couple of tries.

Unfortunately though, I think it would take me a little more practice until I quit grabbing the speedloader by the release knob and knocking the cartridges all over the floor! :banghead:

I do agree that the difference is only fractions of a second though. As I said before, even though my right hand has the stronger grip and is the one I draw and shoot with, my left hand is the one I write and handle small items with, and therefore more dexteritous (sp?). Therefore I'm able to handle my speedloader by the knob when I'm pulling it from my left pants pocket, which is where I keep it when carrying concealed (I make sure that pocket is free of lint beforehand).

Thanks for the advice though, and I probably will practice it some more, and also am looking to try out one of the Safariland Comp IIs as long as I can find one for my EAA Windicator (I checked Safariland's website - the one they show has a more-inset, but smaller "knob" - I don't know whether it's twist or push button though - I think it's even referred to as the Comp I). Maybe you can find more information out and let me know by post reply, e-mail, or PM.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Plinkerton]

As far as I know, the Comp I's operate in the same fasion, though I'm not quite sure how, with out the bigger knob. I think they operate in the same way as the Comp II's, as you use the knob ONLY to load the rounds, and then you just push on the main body to load them. As has been said, you don't use the "knob" on the Comp II's at all. You hold the main body of the speedloader, and push that way. There is no though of releasing to early, as you are not controlling the release by twisting the knob, it does it all itself. So, when doing the switch-hand method, there would be no worry of dropping rounds all over. There are also Comp III's with actually propel the rounds into the gun, with a spring, which can cut even more fractions of seconds off of reloading times. They seem to only be used in competitions though, as they are bulkier than the others.

After using both the HKS and the Comp II's, I see the HKS loaders as a HUGE disadvantage. They don't hold the rounds as snug as the Comp II's, as the Comp's are spring loaded, and hold the rounds in with some spring tension. Also, not having to steady the cylinder is a huge benefit for me.

I really am not the fastest reloader, and really don't have to be, as I only shoot at the range, but being able to slam a speedloader home, as opposed to turning a little knob is much less frustrating. As I said before, you don't use the knob at all in the Comp II's, only for loading the rounds in. It seems you can get a better overall grip on the Comp's because you never have to hold the loader by a smaller knob.

Sorry for the long post , just trying to make sure I come across clearly.

 

[38SnubFan]

Plinkerton,

You came across LOUD AND CLEAR that time!

I've actually gotten both my right and my left hand trained to stop grabbing the speedloader by the knob, and instead by the body, even on my HKS. So I guess you can say I've mastered both my method and your method properly, and wouldn't you know it....no more rounds on the floor!

You have me really sold on the Comp speedloaders at this point, and I'm definitely going to try them out. I agree with you that the HKS just doesn't hold the rounds in with enough tension to allow them to line up easily, and I fear with the HKS that my hand could slip if they are sweaty, greasy, or wet when I need that reload the most (thus the reason I'm really liking the "fluted" body of the Safariland).

I'm thinking the Safariland is going to be a quicker reload whether you shoot competitively or carry for self-defense, because when seconds count, SECONDS count - whether it's fighting for 1st place and the trophy, or just fighting to stay alive.

Thanks again! You have me sold!

Sincerely,
Matt W.

 

[Plinkerton]

Glad I could help...