Auto vs Revolver, under 5 feet

[Skribs]

I decided to take a new look at the revolver vs. semi-auto debate (admittedly with a strong autoloader bias) in terms of the gunfighter perspective. Ignoring the capacity, power, bore-size, reload speed, accuracy, and ergonomics of the two platforms (which are subjective in preference or in need), I just wanted to look at this from the perspective of getting the first few shots on the BG from the scenario that a BG is in grappling distance already.

What got me thinking about this is one of the videos by the late Paul Gomez:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5sK8TE1nq4&list=UUnlR_KehwA1YfqrR9Mf9Rig&index=3&feature=plcp

Here he talks about some melee-range (to use the gamer term) techniques for shooting, and what can happen when a BG is close enough to grab your gun, but only from the autoloader perspective. He 1) demonstrates the effect of someone grabbing the slide as you pull the trigger (which renders the weapon single-shot until the slide is racked) and 2) shows a technique to fire a semi-auto while keeping it farther out of the grasp of the BG. (at about 2:20)

In regards to point #1, compared with a semi-auto a similar-size revolver A) gives the BG much more to grab, because you grab the autoloader from the middle near the back, and a revolver from the bottom-rear. (This is probably one reason revolvers look more intimidating). B) It would be virtually impossible for a BG to prevent the cylinder from turning, and if the BG’s hand is far enough along the weapon the escaping gasses out the side of the cylinder gap will really hurt.

In regards to point #2, I’m thinking about those gases again – would it be a very wise decision to hold the revolver that close to yourself? Or is there another method used for fighting from a defensive position such as the one in the video?

Anyway, what got me thinking about this was the point in 1B – that a revolver would be a lot harder for the BG to stop from firing again, and would actually shoot the BG off the gun. Then I started thinking about 1A and #2, and started to think that maybe the autoloader might be the way to go if getting a few shots off in contact range is the priority.

One other thought I have before I post is that you might have a better grip on a revolver, because you don’t have to worry about putting bullets in the grip and it can be designed to be held onto better.

What are your guys’ thoughts? Please keep in mind, I am specifically concerned with getting a few shots on target quickly at ranges of 5 feet or less (close enough for the BG to grab your gun if it’s held out), so anything that is either A) subjective or B) irrelevant to the question isn’t something I want to compare.

 

[Teachu2]

Revolvers typically don't fire with the hammer obstructed. If the BG can push the slide out of battery on a semi-auto, you'd best know how to fight dirty, too. It's really a wash, IMO.

If I've gotta wrestle a BG, the Glock 30 would be my choice. The large grip vs a short slide gives me better leverage, and (short of a bayonet-equipped handgun) that's the best I could hope for. That, and I know how to fight dirty if my life is at stake.

YMMV - I have large hands, long arms, I'm a big guy, and I fight dirty. If you get a death grip better on a J-frame, that's a better choice. It's about weapon retention and clearing the malfunction.

 

[Skribs]

What about a DAO hammer with the hammer completely covered?

 

[Inebriated]

Can stick a finger behind the trigger.

Any gun can be defeated.

I'll take the auto, though. If you can shoot a revolver fast, you can shoot an auto faster. And at that range, speed is king.

 

[Skribs]

Think it would be easier to reach the trigger on an auto, since you're not reaching around the frame like you are on a revolver.

 

[Inebriated]

Well on an auto, you would just want to knock the slide out of battery. No need to go for the trigger.

 

[savanahsdad]

this where I would go with a 1911 45acp, BG might get his thumb on the hammer but he could not get his finger in back of the triger , and the slide on my 1911 is stiff , and if said bad guy did go for it all you have to do is pull back and shoot

 

[TimboKhan]

I would rather have the revolver if it were a concealed gun. It's just a personal thing, but I handle small revolvers better than small autos. Also, revolvers can be fired from weirder positions than can an auto. No limp wristing issues, no blocking the slide with your weird hand position, no slide hitting you in the chest or other body part giving you a ftf, etc. Also , larger caliber selection. In a service handgun.... It's a wash. I love revolvers and still think they have a place as defensive arms, but I can't really argue against the auto being the better combat arm in general. That being said, my nightstand gun is a revolver, so there you go.

As a side note, number of shots is kind of irrelevant to me at this range.

 

[easyg]

The autoloader can be pushed out of battery and will fail to fire the chambered round.

But a uncocked revolver, or a DAO revolver, can be grasped from the top with the fingers wrapping around the cylinder, and will not fire because the cylinder cannot turn.

It's a wash.

 

[PabloJ]

The autoloader can be pushed out of battery and will fail to fire the chambered round.

But a uncocked revolver, or a DAO revolver, can be grasped from the top with the fingers wrapping around the cylinder, and will not fire because the cylinder cannot turn.

It's a wash.

Bad breath, Mace and stun gun to the crotch? Would that combo work up real close?

 

[JERRY]

whats your other hand doing to the bad guy whilst he trying to grab your tuck in to your side gun?

 

[Sam1911]

A revolver can very easily be stopped from functioning -- concealed hammer or not.

A firm "hand-shake" grasp around the cylinder will be enough to keep you from being able to cycle the cylinder by pulling the trigger. Remember, there is no "cocked and locked" with DA revolvers. If the cylinder doesn't turn, it doesn't go BANG. And there's a LOT of cylinder surface area to get ahold of.

Having said that, you should practice often shooting from a retention position with either style of weapon. It doesn't matter what gun you're carrying, the draw should be the same. Once you clear leather and that gun comes up to the "Step 2" position (near your pectoral muscle) you can fire, and should be using the weak-side hand, arm, and elbow to create the distance you need to protect the gun from a grab.

 

[Sam1911]

Very Good:
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/media/images/german-seminar.jpg
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2.jpg
http://practicalfirearmstraining.com/images/shooting_from_retention.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/street-3.jpg

Better:
http://dpairborneranger.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dscf6652-copy.jpg

(Note that there is technique involved. This is NOT just putting a hand out to stiff-arm the guy. While in a fight you do what you HAVE to do, and anything goes in order to survive, there are ways to practice this and employ it that don't put your support/guard hand and arm in front of the muzzle.)

This is where "shooting" becomes "FIGHTING with a gun." Sadly Paul only can teach in spirit, now. But guys like SouthNarc are carrying the torch forward.

 

[hentown]

Anybody know of any published studies that show how many times per year a bad guy pushes a semi-auto's slide out of battery during a struggle??? Anybody?? The logical extrapolation of this thread would be that everybody should carry a single-shot, hammerless derringer.

 

[Sam1911]

Surely, as we can't even manage to produce credible data on how many times guns are used defensively each year, minutea like that won't be forthcoming either.

But, fortunately, good retention techniques work to keep your slide in battery (or your cylinder clear to turn) just as much as they work to keep you in possession and control of your gun, so you really don't have to worry about either problem, specifically.

 

[Drail]

If you're THAT close to a threat keep the gun low and close in to your body and start backing up. If you let them get close enough to touch you or your gun then you have already lost that battle.

 

[Sam1911]

If you're THAT close to a threat keep the gun low and close in to your body

Actually, the 2nd position of the draw is fairly high up beside the chest -- wrist straight, gun may be rotated slightly outward to keep the reciprocating slide from touching your body or clothing.

That's a much stronger position to fight from than holding the gun down low by the waist. Very hard to reach, very hard to deflect, and already on target.

 

[Skribs]

Hmm...I guess I'll have to see how well I can keep the cylinder from turning while dry-firing. I would have assumed the cylinder would just slip through the BGs fingers.

Since nobody has addressed this issue, I'm bringing it back up - would the escaping gases from the cylinder gap when the revolver is fired from the retention position cause a hazard to your body?

 

[premier1]

I worked armed everyday of my life . I will be at a bank, a private community, sporting events I've even gaurded people personally. While at training one of the things we worked on was getting shots off quickly. Keeping in mind that the criteria is 5 feet. I used my XD9Sc and also a Glock 17 gen. 3. I recently purchased a Taurus 85SS. In performing the same drill which is to get your first shot off in less than a second I have found that the snubnose is faster. Keeping in mind certain things a distance of up to about 5 yards and also that your first shot is going off without aiming just clearing your holster. I have found the snubnose 38 to be faster out of the holster and firing than an autoloader.

 

[Greg528iT]

I found this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU

While the initial tests were to unholster, cock and fire.. Inside 5 feet.. you'd have trouble unholstering.

I would say, inside 5 ft.. your best defense is going to be your hands or fists. until you can gain enough advantage to be able to draw anything, revolver or auto.

 

[Skribs]

I am aware of the Teuller drill. However, if the BG is already on me, my initial reaction is going to be to back away to weak side, throw up my "weak" hand (which, since I am cross-eye dominant and I shoot my eye dominance, is technically my strong arm) to create a fence between me and the attacker, and then draw.

That fact doesn't change the question, it just shows a different part of the situation than what I'm looking at.

 

[premier1]

Just a follow up if we all would remember the Brenahrd Goetz incident he got 5 shots off wounding 4 would be attackers before any of them could react. With a snubnose 38. This was of course before autoloaders were the vouge.

 

[Sam1911]

Since nobody has addressed this issue, I'm bringing it back up - would the escaping gases from the cylinder gap when the revolver is fired from the retention position cause a hazard to your body?

Sorry, I mean to address that. If your revolver is working properly, no. You'll probably have to actually try the retention position I've shown for this to make sense, but the cylinder gap is going to remain forward of your chest. It isn't an issue.

If you're fighting for your life and the gun DOES get pressed against you as you fire, cylinder gap burns will be the least of your worries. (Unless you're shooting a hyper-pressure revolver like a .460 S&W Mag...but defensively...well, that's dumb.)

I fired my .44 from that position in competition on Sunday -- no burns.

 

[Sam1911]

I would say, inside 5 ft.. your best defense is going to be your hands or fists. until you can gain enough advantage to be able to draw anything, revolver or auto.

You and Skribs are both right. The point in this case is to use your support side arm, and your body to create a pocket in which you can draw, orient the gun into the attacker, and fire.

Again, like so: http://dpairborneranger.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dscf6652-copy.jpg

 

[Skribs]

I just realized that shooting left-handed with an auto would be pummeling me with spent casings...guess its something I'll have to try. Of course I'll practice with my hand in front of me using an airsoft gun first...