Auto vs Revolver, under 5 feet
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allaroundhunter
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I practice firing from a retention position for instances like this. If I have to defend myself in close quarters and/or when I have to fire and don't have the time to extend the gun.
Any gun can be defeated, but (*opinion coming*) I would expect a BG would be able to push a slide out of battery and keeping an auto from firing more easily than keeping a revolver from firing (especially a hammerless revolver). However, neither would be easy for a BG to keep from firing if the shooter is firing from a retention position.
That being said, I am more proficient with autos, and I prefer them to revolvers so that is what I carry.
Any gun can be defeated, but (*opinion coming*) I would expect a BG would be able to push a slide out of battery and keeping an auto from firing more easily than keeping a revolver from firing (especially a hammerless revolver). However, neither would be easy for a BG to keep from firing if the shooter is firing from a retention position.
That being said, I am more proficient with autos, and I prefer them to revolvers so that is what I carry.
rjrivero
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Sam1911 said:
Having attended the Paul E. Gomez Memorial Training Event (aka Paul-E-Palooza) and having been exposed to the progressive thought son Extreme Close Quarters Combat (ECQC) Principles, concerns about someone being able to disable your semi-auto vs. revolver are pretty moot.
Paul Sharp did a seminar on this high retention shooting position and high ready shooting position as index shooting. The point is to use the gun to create distance where you can re-gain the advantage in a ECQC type engagement.
Generically, it's in the "high guard" position, or doing whatever is necessary to create a little bit of distance/space for you to draw and fire from an "indexed high ready position" as defined in Paul Gomez's video.JERRY said:
FWIW, This guy with the biceps and the gun, is Greg Ellifritz. He was also an instructor at the Paul Gomez Memorial Training Event.
IMO, therein lies the flaw in approach: A single imagined assumption of an encounter scenario to dictate a general selection. Many make different, and equally imaginative, assumptions IMO (e.g. multiple assailants). IMO pick the gun(s) 1) you shoot best of 2) the largest caliber possible with 3) the most rounds on board that 4) you will/can actually carry.
Regardless, to play along: S&W 442. However, revolvers don't fire if the cylinder is held. Any scenario can be imagined and you won't know conclusively until after the fact. Much before is subjective.
Coalman, I'm not using this particular scenario as the only scenario in which to base my decision. However, in this thread, I only wanted to look at this scenario, and not all of the other factors. I've participated in plenty of threads regarding the power, accuracy, capacity, reload speed, and ergos of the revolver vs. the autoloader. I don't need a rehashing of those there.
And, as you can see, I still lean towards the autoloader for this situation after looking at this (1B in my initial post was the only pro-revolver point, and that has been debunked), so I'm really not basing any decisions at all on this scenario at this point.
And, as you can see, I still lean towards the autoloader for this situation after looking at this (1B in my initial post was the only pro-revolver point, and that has been debunked), so I'm really not basing any decisions at all on this scenario at this point.
JERRY
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rjrivero, that was a retorical question i posed for those whom havent an idea of how to fight and shoot at the same time.
Teachu2, im sure his pic was just showing an example referencing the question i posed to others....
there are more things than covering up with your non shooting hand that you can do. short lower body/leg kicks help create distance and buy fractions. of course there is the sacrafice your non shooting hand into the "in your face" edged weapon while you shoot. that worked for me(considering) in '95.
remember, even point blank shooting a bad guy anywhere other than the head will still result in you getting cut somehow if hes upon you with a knife.
Teachu2, im sure his pic was just showing an example referencing the question i posed to others....
there are more things than covering up with your non shooting hand that you can do. short lower body/leg kicks help create distance and buy fractions. of course there is the sacrafice your non shooting hand into the "in your face" edged weapon while you shoot. that worked for me(considering) in '95.
remember, even point blank shooting a bad guy anywhere other than the head will still result in you getting cut somehow if hes upon you with a knife.
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ClickClickD'oh
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premier1 said:
Your terrible twos must have really lived up to the name.
rjrivero
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JERRY said:
Understood. I was just trying to emphasize some salient points in the thread.
For instance this point bears repeating.
JERRY said:
And Sam1911 mentioned SouthNarc from ShivWorks. He has a great program on "Managing Unknown Contacts." If you find that you're in bad breath distance mixing it up, things will get ugly fast. ESPECIALLY if your opponent knows how to use a knife.
In this case, knowing and practicing the technique to shoot from High Ready (Position 3) and High Draw (position 2) are valuable tools to have in the tool box.
There is an entire world of ECQC that is facinating. It's like MMA with knives and guns. ShivWorks is definitely at the forefront of that dicipline.
I get that. This was the opening paragraph of this thread (emphasis added):
Regardless of weapon type, IMO the "three C" salient points at contact distance are:
1) keep the weapon close (aides in #2)
2) keep control of the weapon (relates to #1)
3) keep the weapon clear so it will function
We could address techniques to accomplish this, but weapon choice is moot IMO as imagined scenario can trump either selection. I guess maybe I'm undethinking it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
It's easy to stop a cylinder from turning. Careful with your test or you'll wreck the hand and/or ratchet.
jimbo555
Member
A cop 357 4barrel derringer solves the problem!
One of the reasons I really like revolvers with fairly small grips, is so I can grasp them very well during a close-range fight, compared to my grasp while holding a double-column autoloading handsgun. My hands are somewhat large, but my fingers and thumbs are relatively medium to short in length, and, yes, I did mean to type "handsgun" in the preceding sentence; a Glock, to me, is at its best in a two-hand hold.
A couple of my SP101 snubbies have been refinished in a way (slight carry bevel) to make it even more difficult for an opponent to get a good firm grasp, if I have a firm grasp on the grip.
On the other hand, there are moments in time that favor the autoloader; an opponent cannot, for example, so easily interdict the trigger stroke of a striker-fired auto with an overhand grab. Of course, if an opponent is so kind as to to get that close, and fully occupy one hand, he is close enough for me
to apply some serious physical affection, and then execute takeaway/retention techniques.
I make no claim to being on the cutting edge of anything, being rather low-speed and high-drag, but I did attend ECQC in 2005 and, IIRC, 2006, with SouthNarc and Paul Gomez, and attended the Snubby Summit, where Michael deBethencourt showed me some good stuff. Now that I am recently freed from an elderly relative limiting my ability to travel, I plan to soon resume traveling and training.
To be clear, I am not a revolver-only guy. I started handgunning with a 1911, drinking heavily from the Modern Technique well, and did not try learning much about revolvers, thinking them rather quaint, until I was hired by a PD in 1983, with a DA-revolver-only mandate for the academy and then my first year of service. Knowing I had to survive the rookie period, I became very serious about revolvers. I normally carry two handguns, and it is not unusual for one to be a revolver, and one an auto.
A couple of my SP101 snubbies have been refinished in a way (slight carry bevel) to make it even more difficult for an opponent to get a good firm grasp, if I have a firm grasp on the grip.
On the other hand, there are moments in time that favor the autoloader; an opponent cannot, for example, so easily interdict the trigger stroke of a striker-fired auto with an overhand grab. Of course, if an opponent is so kind as to to get that close, and fully occupy one hand, he is close enough for me
to apply some serious physical affection, and then execute takeaway/retention techniques.
I make no claim to being on the cutting edge of anything, being rather low-speed and high-drag, but I did attend ECQC in 2005 and, IIRC, 2006, with SouthNarc and Paul Gomez, and attended the Snubby Summit, where Michael deBethencourt showed me some good stuff. Now that I am recently freed from an elderly relative limiting my ability to travel, I plan to soon resume traveling and training.
To be clear, I am not a revolver-only guy. I started handgunning with a 1911, drinking heavily from the Modern Technique well, and did not try learning much about revolvers, thinking them rather quaint, until I was hired by a PD in 1983, with a DA-revolver-only mandate for the academy and then my first year of service. Knowing I had to survive the rookie period, I became very serious about revolvers. I normally carry two handguns, and it is not unusual for one to be a revolver, and one an auto.
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In a recent catalog (published during the early 1930's) 
, Smith & Wesson illustrated a technique where a man is armed with a Safety Hammerless/top break revolver held even with the front/side of the torso, with the forearm level and the elbow well behind the body. The other arm is partially extended where it can push or block a point-blank attacker.
Never let it be said that the Old Fuff isn't up on the latest ideas...
, Smith & Wesson illustrated a technique where a man is armed with a Safety Hammerless/top break revolver held even with the front/side of the torso, with the forearm level and the elbow well behind the body. The other arm is partially extended where it can push or block a point-blank attacker.Never let it be said that the Old Fuff isn't up on the latest ideas...
Sam1911
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Perhaps, but perhaps not. Especially when you consider that if someone has jumped you and is working their hardest to block/foul your draw and your shot, your first round may not connect with anything. If you opponant has managed to grasp your gun he may be able to foul it's cycle, causing a stoppage in an auto. Or simply grasp the cylinder and keep it from turning, if a revolver.
Shooting is part of the answer but it isn't the whole answer.
CApighunter
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A very good friend of mine, hunting guide, and former LEO had a similar incident occur a few years ago. I'll include the link to an article about it, but to summarize it:
1. Deputy with k-9 is searching a vehicle.
2. Felon is behind the wheel of the vehicle.
3. He gets out and complies with officers.
4. Pulls gun on deputy and sticks .38 revolver under deputys vest.
5. Deputy grabs cylinder, preventing it from firing.
6. Other officers take the guy to the ground, but can't gain control of the weapon.
7. Deputy fires one round into felons chest.
8. Felon declared dead at hospital.
Here is the link:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SONOMA-COUNTY-Sheriff-s-deputy-kills-parolee-2588924.php
1. Deputy with k-9 is searching a vehicle.
2. Felon is behind the wheel of the vehicle.
3. He gets out and complies with officers.
4. Pulls gun on deputy and sticks .38 revolver under deputys vest.
5. Deputy grabs cylinder, preventing it from firing.
6. Other officers take the guy to the ground, but can't gain control of the weapon.
7. Deputy fires one round into felons chest.
8. Felon declared dead at hospital.
Here is the link:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SONOMA-COUNTY-Sheriff-s-deputy-kills-parolee-2588924.php
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allaroundhunter
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CApighunter:
Thanks for the link, I'm pretty sure that is the first account where I have heard of that happening outside of a training event.
Thanks for the link, I'm pretty sure that is the first account where I have heard of that happening outside of a training event.
If you notice in most typical demonstration of 'self defense against someone with a pistol', the 'attacker' almost always sticks his gun out first in the face of the 'attackee'.
That is rather easy to defend again. In fact, IF you are ever in a situation where
someone pulls a gun on you [without you already having drawn and firing], that is probably the best condition for one to be in.
Also remember that an untrained attacker probably will have target fixation if he sees your gun. Use that to your advantage as well.
That is rather easy to defend again. In fact, IF you are ever in a situation where
someone pulls a gun on you [without you already having drawn and firing], that is probably the best condition for one to be in.
Also remember that an untrained attacker probably will have target fixation if he sees your gun. Use that to your advantage as well.
...or fictional scenario. Happens all the time in movies and TV (typically the unarmed individual will grab the gun and drop the mag, in a couple they're smart enough to also rack the slide). Or to the extreme in Equillibrium.
I tried the revolver cylinder thing...okay I was wrong. I didn't think it would be easy to keep the cylinder from moving, but I guess I was wrong. However, I do believe it would be easier to take the slide out of battery than stop the cylinder if you could get ahold of it...either way, I'll call that a wash.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The problem isn't getting the slide out of battery. It's keeping it out of battery during a struggle. The shooter isn't gonna just stand there and let you hang onto his gun. His first instinct will be to jerk it backward, which helps get it back into battery. Much easier to grab a revolver cylinder and hang on tight.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Just to muddy the waters D) another possibility with a non-shrouded hammered revolver is to block the hammer from falling by jamming the web of your hand in between the hammer and back of the frame, as you grip it from the top. (And hold on for dear life.)
I've read of this actually saving an officer's life. Of course, the resulting damage to that skin is likely to be ghastly, but that would be better than the alternative.
D) another possibility with a non-shrouded hammered revolver is to block the hammer from falling by jamming the web of your hand in between the hammer and back of the frame, as you grip it from the top. (And hold on for dear life.) I've read of this actually saving an officer's life. Of course, the resulting damage to that skin is likely to be ghastly, but that would be better than the alternative.
beag_nut
Member
Re: Holding the cylinder of a revolver from rotating.
Anybody try this?
I just did, on my Ruger GP100, and SP101. OUCH!! The flutes catch the skin of one's hand as the cylinder tries to rotate, and the instantaneous natural reaction is to let go! One would need to be on a high to ignore the intense pain of getting skin and flesh ripped off as the flutes of the cylinder drag the flesh under the top strap.
Revolvers rule. (unless one has an unfluted cylinder)
Anybody try this?
I just did, on my Ruger GP100, and SP101. OUCH!! The flutes catch the skin of one's hand as the cylinder tries to rotate, and the instantaneous natural reaction is to let go! One would need to be on a high to ignore the intense pain of getting skin and flesh ripped off as the flutes of the cylinder drag the flesh under the top strap.
Revolvers rule. (unless one has an unfluted cylinder)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Uh...if you're fighting to not be shot, you will have a very firm grip and likely will not be of a mind to notice a little discomfort in your hand until long after the action's over, the bad guy is down/gone, and you've finished shaking and puking.
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