Automatic weapons ownership

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Picknlittle

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This is not another "can I legally own an automatic firearm" thread, but more of a needed history lesson.

Can someone please, in layman's terms, explain the cronology (sp?) of laws banning and or controlling Automatic firearms and the ownership thereof.

Reason for the question: Sometime back, in my local paper, there was a story about a home burgularized, and among items taken was a loaded AK-47.

We have a StoryChat forum and the comment was made that the man should not have had a fully auto weapon in his home, let alone loaded.

At any rate I posted that I doubted it was fully auto, and was like a semi auto HD gun. Someone touted that he couldn't even own one of those, unless he had an FFL.

Then it wound up turning into a discussion of the Hughes Amendment of 1986, and that Viet Nam vets were allowed to keep fully auto war souvineers.

So, clarification please. I have always been under the impression that war weapon souvineers were a no no.

Keep in mind I'm dense,....splain it to me like I'm a 6 years old. :)
 
Sure! Simply, in 1934, the National Firearms Act was enacted, and required a $200 (huge money at the time) tax stamp for each fully automatic firearm purchased or transferred between people.

In 1986, the Firearms Owner Protection Act had a rather nasty amendment to it, adding 922(o) to the United States Code... this made it so that no new fully automatic firearms are able to be transferred to civilians.

Summing up, the only FA firearms legally in civilian hands had to have tax stamps paid for between 1934 and 1986.
 
Just for starters, did the news story actually say it was a "fully automatic AK47", or just "AK47" or "automatic AK47"? There are semi automatic AK47s if you don't know.
 
1934: NFA is passed.
1968: GCA is passed. There was a month-long amnesty in Nov/Dec 1968 that allowed people to register anything tax-free. Imported title II firearms are restricted from sale to the general public, but domestic production is not affected. This affects war trophies that are title II firearms. Also, the GCA regulated destructive devices, which weren't regulated in the original NFA.
May 19, 1986: 922(o) takes effect. Machine guns registered after this date can't be transferred to anyone other than a dealer/LE agency/the military.
 
In 1934 the government came up with a law that requires you to pay a $200 tax and go through certian rules to own a full auto. The idea was that $200 was alot of money and only good people with money would own these guns. Today $200 isn't alot of money so to make sure only the rich can afford a full auto the government stopped all production . No guns means higher prices.

It is legal to own a transferable to the public full autos in 38 states. Dealers who pay $500 per year in Lic can own "dealer samples" which are restricted to them and not for sale to the public. A transferable full auto can be puchased in a state that allows it if you go through all the hurdles that the government has set up.

Someone who has an unregistered AK 47 in full auto is breaking the law. Alot of AKs are comming across the open southern border and are used in the drug trades.

jim
 
I'm getting really confused now.

My understanding was that as of 1934, no (zero) FA's could be transfered to any civilian. I thought the Hughes Amendment, 1986 was the document that made it possible to purchase FAs but had strict controls as to who they could be purchased through (class 3 FFLs), and established all the guidelines and procedures. Up until now, the biggest thing I was confused about (or so I thought) was the war souvenirs part.

Is it not a felony to smuggle any military firearm home as a souvenir? Hasn't it been a prohibited for a very long time?
 
Just for starters, did the news story actually say it was a "fully automatic AK47", or just "AK47" or "automatic AK47"? There are semi automatic AK47s if you don't know.
__________________

No, it simply said "loaded AK-47". Someone else on the forum turned it into a full auto, then I commented that was not likely, and went on to say that a full auto would be cost prohibitive if nothing else for the purpose of HD.

Then this kid (19 or so years old) kept writing, " maybe he brought it home from Viet Nam!", but would never clarify or qualify his statement.

I replied that if he brought it home Viet Nam, it was likely illegal, and he just kept on. This was where the Hughes Amendment came into the discussion. He brought it up, and frankly it reads like a sleep aid,....therefore I am asking :)
 
I'm getting really confused now.
Don't feel alone on that one :)

My understanding was that as of 1934, no (zero) FA's could be transfered to any civilian.

No - as others have stated, the National Firearms Act of 1934 required a $200 tax be paid on the transfer of certain weapons (defined in the Act as "firearms"). See this link: National Firearms Act

Up until 1968, anyone could transfer a "firearm", so long as the tax was paid. As inflation rose, what was once a relatively large sum of money ($200) became more and more "tolerable" to people's incomes.

I thought the Hughes Amendment, 1986 was the document that made it possible to purchase FAs but had strict controls as to who they could be purchased through (class 3 FFLs), and established all the guidelines and procedures.

No - that was the Gun Control Act of 1968 that established the Federal Firearms License, among other things. This stopped the mail-order of guns, ammunition, etc. More fun reading here: Gun Control Act

The Hughes Amendment of the 1986 Firearm Owner's Protection Act effectively closed the National Firearms Registry, preventing any new machine guns from being registered and transferred to civilians. As a result, civilians can still possess machineguns (subject to state and local laws), but only those that were entered into the registry prior to the passing of FOPA. What this did is fix the supply of MG's, which is why the price on them is rediculously high (ie. $15K for an M16).

Up until now, the biggest thing I was confused about (or so I thought) was the war souvenirs part.
DEWAT's were fine up until the GCA of '68. There was language in the IRS code that exempted them from the NFA tax. After the amnesty period granted by the GCA, unregistered DEWATs were unregistered machineguns, and therefore contraband. And, of course, any hope of turning a contraband DEWAT legal went up in smoke with the Hughes Amendment to FOPA in '86.
 
I think that vets are still allowed to bring back active firearms if the whole chain of command okays it, but I'm not sure.
And there is technically a way to get a post-'86 machinegun if you're a civilian, though I've never heard of it being done. It's called Form V, and it lays the groundwork for giving the BATFE discretion of who gets to own full autos.
 
My understanding was that as of 1934, no (zero) FA's could be transfered to any civilian.
Actually, prior to 1934 you could go to the gun shop, plunk down your money, and take home a machinegun the same day (unless your state prohibited machineguns). No 4473, no Form 4, no photographs, no CLEO signature, no fingerprints, no $200 transfer tax. :cool:
 
Just for context: the first thing that could be described as a "machine gun" was the Puckle Gun, a sort of crank-operated cylinder-loaded single-barreled 9-shot musket - invented in 1717.

PuckleGun.jpg
 
History (long)

Here is some history. The first major use of full auto weapons in crime occurred in the days of Prohibition, when the sale and use of alcoholic beverages was banned by a constitutional amendment and its enabling legislation, the Volstead Act. Naturally, as with the ban on narcotics, criminals were willing to supply something that people wanted but which was illegal. And again naturally, they fought over territory, using that new invention, the Thompson submachine gun. There was a lot of agitation for controls or a ban on such weapons, but no federal law was passed until several "massacres" occurred, using "Tommy" guns. (The St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago being the most famous, but not the only one.)

When the Depression came on, many people who had previously been small time crooks or trouble makers went big time, often with the tacit support of their families and other "common folk" who had lost everything and were happy to see the big banks take a loss. Automatic weapons thus became a favorite of "independent" criminals like Bonny and Clyde, "Machinegun" Kelly, and others.

Franklin Roosevelt was elected on his promise to end the Depression. It is often alleged, correctly, that FDR did not end the Depression - that honor went to Adolf Hitler. But Roosevelt considered crime one of the "social problems" he wanted solved. One step was to push through a repeal of Prohibition, perhaps not co-incidentally enriching an old supporter who had brought a small ocean of whiskey into the country "in bond" until it was legal to sell it. Thus was the Kennedy family fortune made. (Joe Kennedy was not a "bootlegger" or seller of illegal liquor; he was smart enough to get the liquor positioned until the time was ripe. When other importers tried to sign deals with Scottish distilleries after repeal, they found that Kennedy had tied up the supply for several years.)

Roosevelt appointed as his Attorney General a man named Homer S. Cummings, a humorless, straight-laced and fanatical former prosecutor, who determined to ban all privately owned guns in the U.S. Told that the federal government did not have that power, he decided to use the government's taxing power. The bill he sent to Congress required registration of all guns, and imposed prohibitory transfer taxes on all guns and ammunition. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I think it was $2000 on a machinegun, $1000 on a handgun, $500 on a rifle, and $200 on a shotgun. Centerfire ammunition was taxed at $10 a round, shotgun shells at $5 a round, and rimfire ammunition at $1 a round. Congress finally did pass a law, the National Firearms Act of 1934, but eliminated all the taxes except the transfer tax of $200 on machineguns and some other "gangster weapons", including silencers, so-called. (For today's equivalents multiply by $40, so a box of .22 cartridges would have been taxed at the equivalent of $2000. A shotgun would have been taxed at the equivalent of $8000 and each shell at $200.)

The NFA seemed to work as crime did drop off (mainly because the sale of liquor was now legal), and the Roosevelt administration decided to try again to control other firearms. The result was the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, which established the licensing of dealers, and much of the rest of the current federal gun laws. That use of the taxing power, thought up by Cummings, was the reason that until recently, the enforcement of federal gun laws was done by the Treasury Department, as tax evasion is the actual crime under those laws. (If a person buys and sells guns without a license, say, or owns an illegal machinegun, he is evading taxes.)

Few today realize how close FDR came to his dream of a total gun ban, and how close he came to realizing his other dream of becoming an American dictator. While he was not in the league with Hitler or a posturing buffoon like Mussolini, there is little doubt that he would have been willing to establish concentration camps for opponents, as he did for Japanese and Japanese-Americans later. Had the war not occurred to give him bigger problems than worrying about armed Americans, who knows what he would have done to destroy our freedoms?

Jim
 
Here's a question, say I live in Idaho or one of the many states that allows machineguns, sbrs etcetera, I form a trust, I buy a krinkov kit, now this kit could be from 1976 or it could have been built 3 years ago in Bulgaria and shipped in as a kit, so I get a licensed dealer to rebuild the krink for me and go ahead with the tax stamp, background check etcetera...

now this is a post 86 submachine gun, how is that allowed?? if you are not supposed to be able to get a NFA device after 86??
 
Here's a question, say I live in Idaho or one of the many states that allows machineguns, sbrs etcetera, I form a trust, I buy a krinkov kit, now this kit could be from 1976 or it could have been built 3 years ago in Bulgaria and shipped in as a kit, so I get a licensed dealer to rebuild the krink for me and go ahead with the tax stamp, background check etcetera...

now this is a post 86 submachine gun, how is that allowed?? if you are not supposed to be able to get a NFA device after 86??

You can't as a civilian own a post 86 full auto. (licensed builders can, dealers under certain conditions can, military can and so can the Fed Gov.) You can own a semi auto version provided that the barrel length is legal or you have it registered as a SBR.

Age of the kit does not matter.
 
now this is a post 86 submachine gun, how is that allowed?? if you are not supposed to be able to get a NFA device after 86??

It isn't allowed. Your Krink will have to be semi-auto (you'll still have to pay $200 for the short barrel). Anything not registered in the ATF/NFA registery at the time the registery was closed in '86 is illegal to own unless you're a Class 3 dealer.
 
What would happen if you applied for a post 86 on a form V and were denied. If you had a sparkling white record and your state allows mgs, would you have grounds for a court case against the ATF?
 
What would happen if you applied for a post 86 on a form V and were denied. If you had a sparkling white record and your state allows mgs, would you have grounds for a court case against the ATF?

Here's what I predict:

My generation (30 and younger) clamors for AWs and the like. At some point, once the baby-boomer politicians are almost all dead (oh please God soon), Someone is going to ask, "You know what, I want a new full-auto AK, why the hell can't I have one? Why can't we over-turn this stupid law?" And on top of that, this person will have the $$$ to take it to court. They'll win, we'll get our MGs and the last remaining baby-boomers will cry and spit out of their toothless mouths.
 
Sure, you could file a lawsuit over a rejected F1 for a MG. Then again, your court costs would exceed the cost of a MG.

And you could fight and die for freedom, but then you would be dead and have no freedom.

Some people see a principle behind the sacrifice.


Here's what I predict:

My generation (30 and younger) clamors for AWs and the like. At some point, once the baby-boomer politicians are almost all dead (oh please God soon), Someone is going to ask, "You know what, I want a new full-auto AK, why the hell can't I have one? Why can't we over-turn this stupid law?" And on top of that, this person will have the $$$ to take it to court. They'll win, we'll get our MGs and the last remaining baby-boomers will cry and spit out of their toothless mouths.

I predict that with the drug war, but I don't see it so much with firearms.
 
Dealers who pay $500 per year in Lic can own "dealer samples" which are restricted to them and not for sale to the public.

I'm sure I could look this up, but I'm lazy and one of you may know... What if I am a licensed dealers and own many post-86 dealer samples, then I go out of business? I know I can't sell them, so they're worthless financially. But I wonder, are they now mine (personally)? Does the gov't seize them? Do I have to send them back to the manufacturer?

Basically, I cease business operations and no longer renew my license, what happens to all my MGs?


-T.
 
When you close up shop, any post-samples you own must be sold to LE or another dealer or destroyed. You can keep pre-samples. But thats a whole nother story.

There are actually 3 types of machineguns in civilian (including SOT) hands.

Transferable: MG's built and placed on the NFA registry prior to May 1986.

Pre-Sample: A MG imported into the US after the 1968 GCA, but before the FOPA 86. These can only be purchased by dealers, but CAN be kept when you close up shop.

Post-Sample: A MG built and registered after FOPA 1986. Can only be owned by dealers/manufacturers and the .gov. Must be surrendered, sold, or destroyed when you close up shop.

c2k
 
There are these 2 guys that come in the gun shop and brag about their full auto conversion jobs. They offer to sell you a new fully auto ar for $5,000.
I don't know what the fine/prison time is but they're gonna' find out if they don't shut up.
I've fired an M-16 and an Ingram 45. Kinda' fun but not worth the trouble.
 
Twud, IF they bought and registered the auto sears, i think that is the name for the parts needed to convert an AR to M16, BEFORE the drop dead date in '86 they are legal. There was a dealer near me, all legal, who had the parts in their safe waiting for someone with the $$ to buy the parts.

The penalty was up to 10 years and $250,000 for each count if they were not legal.
 
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