AWB sunset... What's next?
- Thread starter grislyatoms
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madmike
Member
"
"The gun nuts are trying to pass a law to let people own machineguns!"
"Yes, we heard about that. They can buy assault weapons now, right? Machineguns, flamethrowers, mortar launchers(sic) and such."
"No, no! That was a ban that expired, this is a law that would allow them to carry machineguns!"
"But they are, aren't they?"
"No, those weren't machineguns, those were just rifles!"
"'Just rifles'? But didn't you say they were machineguns and blood would run in the street?"
"The important thing now is to get rid of machineguns!"
"But didn't you already argue that issue and lose?"
"No! No! YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! THAT WASN'T MACHINEGUNS!"
"But you said it was."
"Ah, er, we ahem, um, er ah, that was just rhetoric to catch your attention."
"So the law wasn't about machineguns?"
"No."
"So what was the big deal?"
"Nothing! But THIS IS a big deal!"
"Really? Will Osama come and buy machineguns? Along with the Big Bad Wolf?"
"You're mocking us!"
"Well....yes."
Yup, let's go after 1986 now. After all, the public's confusion, combined with the weapons' menacing looks, can only help legislatively.
"The gun nuts are trying to pass a law to let people own machineguns!"
"Yes, we heard about that. They can buy assault weapons now, right? Machineguns, flamethrowers, mortar launchers(sic) and such."
"No, no! That was a ban that expired, this is a law that would allow them to carry machineguns!"
"But they are, aren't they?"
"No, those weren't machineguns, those were just rifles!"
"'Just rifles'? But didn't you say they were machineguns and blood would run in the street?"
"The important thing now is to get rid of machineguns!"
"But didn't you already argue that issue and lose?"
"No! No! YOU'RE NOT LISTENING! THAT WASN'T MACHINEGUNS!"
"But you said it was."
"Ah, er, we ahem, um, er ah, that was just rhetoric to catch your attention."
"So the law wasn't about machineguns?"
"No."
"So what was the big deal?"
"Nothing! But THIS IS a big deal!"
"Really? Will Osama come and buy machineguns? Along with the Big Bad Wolf?"
"You're mocking us!"
"Well....yes."
Yup, let's go after 1986 now. After all, the public's confusion, combined with the weapons' menacing looks, can only help legislatively.
Jay Kominek
Member
Is there a list of all the members of the Second Amendment Caucus?
This ought to be forwarded to all of them. (And the NRANews whatsit guy?)
One of them ought to at least try to get the ball rolling on something like this.
This ought to be forwarded to all of them. (And the NRANews whatsit guy?)
One of them ought to at least try to get the ball rolling on something like this.
Some thoughts new and old
MadMike I could only hope it would go that way. The media would still pick and choose the truth they would report. And the forgeries.
Would be an overgrown thread discussion. Will take me hours to catch up.
Many people and I mean real people see no need or lagitamate need for a semiautomatic weapon configured like an M16A2.
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PMDW said:
86, 68, 89, 34. In that order.
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That is a good short and precice plan!
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A national CCW will empower the federal govt to keep track of your name in the context of a registered gun owner.
Is that what we deserve?
The 2nd amendment is the original permit to carry any gun any way we choose. Giving the fed govt more authority over allowing Alice Victoria Temple or banning this individual because of some other person by the same name in another part of the country or even the world. This is happening today at your local major airport.
@ the federal level we could have full pre-emption on any law restricting gun ownership. Forced recognition of other states permit system. 218 did this for LEO.
There are points we can make in our favor in repeals and in proactive moves at the federal level.
This is a fight that will continue. If you think it's all over after Nov 2 you will get what you deserve.
I keep repeating on this board and others.
! RUN FOR OFFICE !
I think I am getting loud on this point because circumstance dictates that I am not able to myself.
Entire GCA 1968
Anything else is just another compromise.
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lotts of work
We will collectively need to work a lot of hours communicating in many ways and means, with all flavors of cival posts. It'll take active citizen input and activism.
Run for office. Work through November and start worrying about 06 and 08.
Do you know what you want at the federal level? I do.
A national pre-emption on states and cities from restrictive laws.
Protection from prosecution for protecting life and property.
A whole lot of laws on the federal level repealed.
On the far edge of legislation; Require all states recognise and honor state permits of every type.
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MadMike I could only hope it would go that way. The media would still pick and choose the truth they would report. And the forgeries.
Would be an overgrown thread discussion. Will take me hours to catch up.
Many people and I mean real people see no need or lagitamate need for a semiautomatic weapon configured like an M16A2.
__________________________________________________________
PMDW said:
86, 68, 89, 34. In that order.
___________________________________________________________
That is a good short and precice plan!
___________________________________________________________
A national CCW will empower the federal govt to keep track of your name in the context of a registered gun owner.
Is that what we deserve?
The 2nd amendment is the original permit to carry any gun any way we choose. Giving the fed govt more authority over allowing Alice Victoria Temple or banning this individual because of some other person by the same name in another part of the country or even the world. This is happening today at your local major airport.
@ the federal level we could have full pre-emption on any law restricting gun ownership. Forced recognition of other states permit system. 218 did this for LEO.
There are points we can make in our favor in repeals and in proactive moves at the federal level.
This is a fight that will continue. If you think it's all over after Nov 2 you will get what you deserve.
I keep repeating on this board and others.
! RUN FOR OFFICE !
I think I am getting loud on this point because circumstance dictates that I am not able to myself.
Entire GCA 1968
Anything else is just another compromise.
_________________________________________________________
lotts of work
We will collectively need to work a lot of hours communicating in many ways and means, with all flavors of cival posts. It'll take active citizen input and activism.
Run for office. Work through November and start worrying about 06 and 08.
Do you know what you want at the federal level? I do.
A national pre-emption on states and cities from restrictive laws.
Protection from prosecution for protecting life and property.
A whole lot of laws on the federal level repealed.
On the far edge of legislation; Require all states recognise and honor state permits of every type.
_________________________________________________________
Graystar
Member
I think the very next thing for us to do is to hammer our senators to support the bill that eliminates all the DC gun laws. That’s on the horizon, and could, hopefully, kick off a trend for the rest of the country.
Lautenberg Amendment?
This discussion and the wish list is entertaiining,but no mention is made of one of the slimeyist pieces of unconstitutional legistlation ever passed in the US.Wife beaters dont have any constitiuentcy but folks who had their rights taken away Ex Post Facto need to have their rights restored.This is murky issue but I know folks who are affected by this even tho they have NEVER been convicted of any crime in a court of law.Lets put some sunshine on this piece of rot!
This discussion and the wish list is entertaiining,but no mention is made of one of the slimeyist pieces of unconstitutional legistlation ever passed in the US.Wife beaters dont have any constitiuentcy but folks who had their rights taken away Ex Post Facto need to have their rights restored.This is murky issue but I know folks who are affected by this even tho they have NEVER been convicted of any crime in a court of law.Lets put some sunshine on this piece of rot!
Billll
Member
The '34 act imposes a tax or fee on the exercise of a constitutional right, and as such is no different than a poll tax. The whole thing should be thrown out on that basis alone, and everyone who has bought a box of .22 has standing.
Or am I all wet on that?
Executive orders can be removed by a countervailing executive order. Bug Bush after the election.
Laws forbidding importation of anything are a free trade issue. as long as the imports meet US standards for the device (car, gun, whatever) they should be allowed in.
Now is the time, while we still have momentum.
Or am I all wet on that?
Executive orders can be removed by a countervailing executive order. Bug Bush after the election.
Laws forbidding importation of anything are a free trade issue. as long as the imports meet US standards for the device (car, gun, whatever) they should be allowed in.
Now is the time, while we still have momentum.
I think you're misunderstanding what we want. We dont want a Federal pre-emption of what states issue. What we want is a federal rule that what one state does with regard to carry should be valid in any other state. The licenses will remain state-issued. So, if CA decides never to grant CCWs that would not stop an AZ resident who has one from carrying when he travels to CA. Works just like your driver's license.
Graystar
Member
I think *you're* misunderstanding what we want. We want no licenses, and recognition of no power to license. You can't license a right!
Graystar
Member
Tell that to Alaskans.
Alaskans dont have to register to vote? Better tell their state government that.
http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/faqs.htm#regvote
http://www.gov.state.ak.us/ltgov/elections/faqs.htm#regvote
Graystar
Member
Voting is a constitutional right. If there’s no government there’s no need for a right to vote. As an invented “rightâ€, it’s subject to whatever the inventors fancy. So it’s a bad example to use.
Self-defense is a natural right and it does, in fact, remain unrestricted. There are even two cases where a felon’s weapons conviction was overturned because at the time the possession occurred the felon was defending his life.
What’s lost on the current government is the symbiotic connection between firearm possession and self-defense. Alaska has recognized that connection, so it’s not impossible to get government to see it.
Self-defense is a natural right and it does, in fact, remain unrestricted. There are even two cases where a felon’s weapons conviction was overturned because at the time the possession occurred the felon was defending his life.
What’s lost on the current government is the symbiotic connection between firearm possession and self-defense. Alaska has recognized that connection, so it’s not impossible to get government to see it.
OK, I'll take this one on. How is "self defense" a natural right? What book is this written in? Where is this enumerated? What proof do you have for this?
Pace the Founders, there are no natural rights. Rights are given. Rights can be taken away. All the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights had to be included because otherwise they wouldnt exist.
Every other right in the Bill is also subject to restrictions. If you want to hold a peaceful protest, you need a permit. There are no unrestricted rights.
Graystar
Member
It is the nature of rights to not have to be written somewhere...they simply exist and are recognized.
Even here in New York, self-defense is recognized.
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
Fantastic write-up on suppressors by Justin. If we can dig up some documentation regarding suppressor use and laws in Europe, we could turn this into a real avenue of advance.
I'd propose two avenues of approach:
1. De-NFA sound suppressors, but require a NICS check at time of purchase.
a. As a compromise, I could live with lowering the transfer fee to $50 and replacing the mandatory CLEO sign-off with giving the CLEO 30 days to provide "good cause" for why the application should be denied. Habitual drunkard, etc - but "good cause" would need to be defined in the bill.
2. A repeal of the ban on registering post-86 machineguns. The repeal would have a ten year sunset clause in it to assist in its passing - that would help get the RINOs on board.
In absence of hard stats showing significant use of machineguns in crimes, I wouldn't be worried about our prospects in 2015.
I view the above as higher priorities than repealing the import ban. We'll only have so much time to push, so we should go for the reforms that'll have the greatest positive impact.
I'd propose two avenues of approach:
1. De-NFA sound suppressors, but require a NICS check at time of purchase.
a. As a compromise, I could live with lowering the transfer fee to $50 and replacing the mandatory CLEO sign-off with giving the CLEO 30 days to provide "good cause" for why the application should be denied. Habitual drunkard, etc - but "good cause" would need to be defined in the bill.
2. A repeal of the ban on registering post-86 machineguns. The repeal would have a ten year sunset clause in it to assist in its passing - that would help get the RINOs on board.
In absence of hard stats showing significant use of machineguns in crimes, I wouldn't be worried about our prospects in 2015.I view the above as higher priorities than repealing the import ban. We'll only have so much time to push, so we should go for the reforms that'll have the greatest positive impact.
They simply exist??? What rights would you say "simply exist"? How do you know they are rights? Some people assert a "right to healthcare". Others dispute that. How do you adjudicate these claims? This is sounding like mushiness of the right, just as bad as mushiness of the left.
Graystar
Member
And what is it about writing a right down on paper that makes exist?
I’ll tell you what it is...recognition. But to think that we only possess officially recognized rights, is shortsighted and completely counter to the reasons for the Ninth Amendment.
Deavis
Member
A couple observations.
Justin - Did you lift part of that from from Paulson's book because it looks very very similiar. If you guys like what Justin said, check out:
Sporting And Tactical Silencers, Vol. 1 (Silencer History And Performance)
by Alan C. Paulson
He actually shows some interesting data in there about how supressors work and the real deal on their effectivness. He also mentions that he believes suppresors were banned due to poaching fears during the depression, not criminal fears. Silencers (a word he does not like) don't work like in the movies!
VaniB - As much as it sounds racist, you are correct to some extent. What you fail to realize is that most minorities are not Democratic, they just think they are. My good friend's father teaches at a black law school in Alabama. He started asking the students if they supported a few things like abortions, gay marriage, gun control, etc. Typical Democratic values if you believe Hillary Clinton. Most of them said they didn't support those things and when told them that made them Republicans they about lost it. They knew they just knew they were Democrats and that crazy cracker was off his rocker. It is just like the man who has voted union all his life, even though the union ultimately costs him his job. He just doesn't know any better.
It is up to us to educate and bring them in one anti at a time. We just got a Kali liberal to purchase her first handgun this very weekend and she had a blast shooting it. That is the only way to repeal legislation is to destroy those liars ability to demonize guns. It is the public ignorance and lack of concern that is costing us our guns.
Lastly, what we need is a George Sorosofr guns. None of this can happen without some big money. If I could figure out a way to raise a few million to start making court cases I would but otherwise we are going to have to wait until one of us makes it big! The reason they get legislation is becaue they have big money lobbying, aka buying, votes. We will not be able to repeal laws in Congress without money. Probably cheaper to go through the courts with the right lawyers.
Justin - Did you lift part of that from from Paulson's book because it looks very very similiar. If you guys like what Justin said, check out:
Sporting And Tactical Silencers, Vol. 1 (Silencer History And Performance)
by Alan C. Paulson
He actually shows some interesting data in there about how supressors work and the real deal on their effectivness. He also mentions that he believes suppresors were banned due to poaching fears during the depression, not criminal fears. Silencers (a word he does not like) don't work like in the movies!
VaniB - As much as it sounds racist, you are correct to some extent. What you fail to realize is that most minorities are not Democratic, they just think they are. My good friend's father teaches at a black law school in Alabama. He started asking the students if they supported a few things like abortions, gay marriage, gun control, etc. Typical Democratic values if you believe Hillary Clinton. Most of them said they didn't support those things and when told them that made them Republicans they about lost it. They knew they just knew they were Democrats and that crazy cracker was off his rocker. It is just like the man who has voted union all his life, even though the union ultimately costs him his job. He just doesn't know any better.
It is up to us to educate and bring them in one anti at a time. We just got a Kali liberal to purchase her first handgun this very weekend and she had a blast shooting it. That is the only way to repeal legislation is to destroy those liars ability to demonize guns. It is the public ignorance and lack of concern that is costing us our guns.
Lastly, what we need is a George Sorosofr guns. None of this can happen without some big money. If I could figure out a way to raise a few million to start making court cases I would but otherwise we are going to have to wait until one of us makes it big! The reason they get legislation is becaue they have big money lobbying, aka buying, votes. We will not be able to repeal laws in Congress without money. Probably cheaper to go through the courts with the right lawyers.
Billmanweh
Member
I'd say the next thing would be getting Bush re-relected and as many Republicans as possible in the Senate and House...
If Kerry wins, you can throw your plans out the window for at least 4 years.
If Kerry wins, you can throw your plans out the window for at least 4 years.
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