ACP
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awesome Americans thwart terrorist on French train
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Deaf Smith
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And NYT opinion peace says guns on the train by lots of folk would have ended as a bloodbath, every body just blazing away blindly.. But most people could have just disarmed him like these three did.
Sure..
Deaf
Sure..
Deaf
Fred Fuller
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Embedded links and photos at the site -
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http://weaponsman.com/?p=24945
Correction /Update on the French Train Attack
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http://weaponsman.com/?p=24945
Correction /Update on the French Train Attack
danez71
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A similar thread was closed yesterday.ETA: I;m not wanting this to be closed..... but theres no Strategies, Tactics and Training being discussed. Just a drive by post.
old lady new shooter
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Just read several articles about the attack and have to strongly second your sentiments especially after learning that a) Spencer Stone ran straight at the terrorist despite being himself unarmed and obviously not protected by any kind of body armor, had the AK-47 not malfunctioned he would have been shot, incredible is a totally inadequate adjective for that level of bravery; and b) the terrorist apparently didn't actually know how to use his firearms (!). (NYT: “He had pulled the trigger on the AK. The primer was just faulty, so the gun didn’t go off, luckily,” Mr. Skarlatos said. “And he didn’t know how to fix it, which is also very lucky.” In addition, the gunman had not been able to load his own handgun: “There was no magazine in it, so he either dropped it accidentally or didn’t load it properly, so he was only able to get what appeared to be one shot off,” Mr. Skarlatos said.")
lemaymiami
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Since this is a situations and tactics board I'll try to provide a few thoughts for comment...
First off, all praise to those fine young men who risked their lives and had a great outcome.
Now for the other stuff... there may come a time when any one of us might be in a similar situation -unarmed and facing a an armed opponent where there's a high probability of very bad things happening if you do nothing (and all present can cite instances in this past year where this has happened in church, on military facilities, in a theater, etc.). Your first option (the one most will choose by default ) is to do nothing, freeze in place and hope you get passed over by whoever the shooter(s) or assailant(s) are..... Plenty of real life accounts on how this works out (both bad and occasionally good...). Your second option is to go to cover or just escape the area where the threat is occurring (and most with loved ones close by will do just this if it's possible -say a quiet prayer that this is possible for you and your family in a life threatening incident...). The third option is a quick and violent response to the threat that you may not survive (but might save others...). You don't need a weapon to be a threat to an armed individual if you're close enough and act suddenly with real determination (a little skill/training will help but any ordinary human can be a severe threat at close quarters if sufficiently motivated/angry -even grandmothers....). I'll stop here and allow others to chime in about what to do in similar circumstances but close with my own mindset...
I was raised by a career Army type (Corps of Engineers officer, 1942-1970) and wish he was still around. I was taught over and over again "do something -don't just stand there -even if it's wrong!". Years later in police work we were taught that any trained officer would act in an emergency while others froze or fled and I found that mostly that was true... I'm long retired but hope I still have the will to act and not freeze up - hope I'm never in that position since the "good guys" don't always win....
First off, all praise to those fine young men who risked their lives and had a great outcome.
Now for the other stuff... there may come a time when any one of us might be in a similar situation -unarmed and facing a an armed opponent where there's a high probability of very bad things happening if you do nothing (and all present can cite instances in this past year where this has happened in church, on military facilities, in a theater, etc.). Your first option (the one most will choose by default ) is to do nothing, freeze in place and hope you get passed over by whoever the shooter(s) or assailant(s) are..... Plenty of real life accounts on how this works out (both bad and occasionally good...). Your second option is to go to cover or just escape the area where the threat is occurring (and most with loved ones close by will do just this if it's possible -say a quiet prayer that this is possible for you and your family in a life threatening incident...). The third option is a quick and violent response to the threat that you may not survive (but might save others...). You don't need a weapon to be a threat to an armed individual if you're close enough and act suddenly with real determination (a little skill/training will help but any ordinary human can be a severe threat at close quarters if sufficiently motivated/angry -even grandmothers....). I'll stop here and allow others to chime in about what to do in similar circumstances but close with my own mindset...
I was raised by a career Army type (Corps of Engineers officer, 1942-1970) and wish he was still around. I was taught over and over again "do something -don't just stand there -even if it's wrong!". Years later in police work we were taught that any trained officer would act in an emergency while others froze or fled and I found that mostly that was true... I'm long retired but hope I still have the will to act and not freeze up - hope I'm never in that position since the "good guys" don't always win....
The immediate action drill for being caught in a near ambush is to attack straight into the ambush. That's what these guys did. It doesn't always work out, but it's really your only chance if you are that close.
old lady new shooter
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"I was taught over and over again "do something -don't just stand there -even if it's wrong!". "
That was kinda what the British guy said, he figured he was gonna die anyway so he preferred to at least try to do something in the process.
"The immediate action drill for being caught in a near ambush is to attack straight into the ambush. That's what these guys did. It doesn't always work out, but it's really your only chance if you are that close."
That makes complete sense if you are armed, especially if you are practiced at shooting while moving. The totally awesome (that word is so overused, but it certainly fits here) thing to me is that he did it unarmed and unprotected.
I was trying to imagine what he was thinking, one thought that crossed my mind was maybe he was thinking ok, the terrorist would probably shoot, but might miss or at least hit him somewhere not immediately lethal so that he would still have a chance to subdue him.* He did actually attend to a wounded passenger after they had the terrorist subdued, despite having being sliced up pretty good by the terrorist's box knife.
*A big thing I learned lately from reading about first the grandmother in Detroit who wounded her two assailants despite having been shot by them four times including once in her support arm, and then the news anchor's husband who took out the wannabe armed robber in the motel incident, also after being shot several times -- getting shot doesn't have to mean it's all over and you're dead, if G-d forbid you get into such a situation you should keep on.
That was kinda what the British guy said, he figured he was gonna die anyway so he preferred to at least try to do something in the process.
"The immediate action drill for being caught in a near ambush is to attack straight into the ambush. That's what these guys did. It doesn't always work out, but it's really your only chance if you are that close."
That makes complete sense if you are armed, especially if you are practiced at shooting while moving. The totally awesome (that word is so overused, but it certainly fits here) thing to me is that he did it unarmed and unprotected.
I was trying to imagine what he was thinking, one thought that crossed my mind was maybe he was thinking ok, the terrorist would probably shoot, but might miss or at least hit him somewhere not immediately lethal so that he would still have a chance to subdue him.* He did actually attend to a wounded passenger after they had the terrorist subdued, despite having being sliced up pretty good by the terrorist's box knife.
*A big thing I learned lately from reading about first the grandmother in Detroit who wounded her two assailants despite having been shot by them four times including once in her support arm, and then the news anchor's husband who took out the wannabe armed robber in the motel incident, also after being shot several times -- getting shot doesn't have to mean it's all over and you're dead, if G-d forbid you get into such a situation you should keep on.
old lady new shooter,
Read the articles and the actual statements by the 3 Americans and the Brit and you won't have to guess. They didn't "think", they acted. Two of the three grew up together "playing" soldier, when they got old enough 2 of them went into the military, and when the Moroccan gunman appeared they hunkered down behind their seats, exchanged looks and Skarlatos called for Stone to "go, go" and they went knowing they needed to cover the distance and hit the guy with the gun hard. The idea that you plan this out in your head just isn't the case.
Read the articles and the actual statements by the 3 Americans and the Brit and you won't have to guess. They didn't "think", they acted. Two of the three grew up together "playing" soldier, when they got old enough 2 of them went into the military, and when the Moroccan gunman appeared they hunkered down behind their seats, exchanged looks and Skarlatos called for Stone to "go, go" and they went knowing they needed to cover the distance and hit the guy with the gun hard. The idea that you plan this out in your head just isn't the case.
old lady new shooter
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I'm having trouble imagining that when they were "playing soldier" they imagined a scenario of going unarmed and unprotected against a heavily armed attacker.
Whatever, they are capital-H Heroes in my book.
Whatever, they are capital-H Heroes in my book.
Sometimes, training just takes over.
When I was practicing martial arts every day, it was not just the physical motions of attack/defend. There is a lot to be said for preparing mentally.
Out of the many things that my instructor said: If you ever encounter someone who is extremely pissed off and he/she is trying to hurt you... it doesn't matter how much training you have, you better be ready for the attack and change your mentality immediately... or else, just run.
Even when we would interact outside of class, he would "test" me. I would be walking around a corner or something and he would jump out and start attacking me. I learned to always be ready and watch my surroundings carefully. He was also the first one to introduce me to firearms even though my family was sort of against it. Cant't thank him enough for all those lessons. They have saved my skin countless times.
When I was practicing martial arts every day, it was not just the physical motions of attack/defend. There is a lot to be said for preparing mentally.
Out of the many things that my instructor said: If you ever encounter someone who is extremely pissed off and he/she is trying to hurt you... it doesn't matter how much training you have, you better be ready for the attack and change your mentality immediately... or else, just run.
Even when we would interact outside of class, he would "test" me. I would be walking around a corner or something and he would jump out and start attacking me. I learned to always be ready and watch my surroundings carefully. He was also the first one to introduce me to firearms even though my family was sort of against it. Cant't thank him enough for all those lessons. They have saved my skin countless times.
old lady new shooter,
This is the behavior of the prepared mind and snap decisions being made. They prepared for most of their lives to respond to some threat, they then went into the military where they further refined that preparation, and reconnecting on this trip gave them the confidence in each other to act with an understanding of what the other would do. Not in detail since there wasn't time, but that Skarlatos would follow Stone and continue on if Stone went down.
This is the behavior of the prepared mind and snap decisions being made. They prepared for most of their lives to respond to some threat, they then went into the military where they further refined that preparation, and reconnecting on this trip gave them the confidence in each other to act with an understanding of what the other would do. Not in detail since there wasn't time, but that Skarlatos would follow Stone and continue on if Stone went down.
Deaf Smith
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Jeff Cooper is the one everyone should read and remember his principles.
http://www.twistedwiretactical.com/Twistedwire/Book_Club_files/Principles_of_Self_Defense.pdf
Principle One: Alertness
Principle Two: Decisiveness
Principle Three: Aggressiveness
Principle Four: Speed
Principle Five: Coolness
Principle Six: Ruthlessness
Principle Seven: Surprise
They reacted with speed, surprise, aggressiveness. There were ALERT. And they were decisive. And from the pounding they gave the terrorist... they were ruthless.
Not bad. Not bad at all.
Deaf
If the bulk of those present attacked the shooter every time it would greatly minimize the casualties. These clowns are not ready to be rushed and most would
be shooting inaccurately. Even if those attacking are hit the odds are in their favor that the wounds will not be mortal. Not saying I will have the courage to do so but that is the drill I run through my mind.
be shooting inaccurately. Even if those attacking are hit the odds are in their favor that the wounds will not be mortal. Not saying I will have the courage to do so but that is the drill I run through my mind.
old lady new shooter
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Wow, great essay, not least because succinct. Thanks very much for posting.
Double Naught Spy
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Another fine example of tackling used to stop an active shooter. It is a risky proposition, but has been shown numerous times to work. Great job by the good guys.
USAF_Vet
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This is an example of people who run toward danger, rather than away from it. I'm proud as hell that one of these men was Air Force.
The strategy is simple. I assume what was going through their minds was "if we don't do something, a lot of people are going to die." They acted, they gambled, and it worked out.
The tactics were also simple. Hit him fast, hit him hard and hit him repeatedly until he stops moving.
One account I read indicated that when the wanna be terrorists weapons failed, he pulled a box cutter and Spencer Stone was wounded during the take down.
Someone in France better be buying these men a lot of beers.
The strategy is simple. I assume what was going through their minds was "if we don't do something, a lot of people are going to die." They acted, they gambled, and it worked out.
The tactics were also simple. Hit him fast, hit him hard and hit him repeatedly until he stops moving.
One account I read indicated that when the wanna be terrorists weapons failed, he pulled a box cutter and Spencer Stone was wounded during the take down.
Someone in France better be buying these men a lot of beers.
Lord Teapot
Member
doubt i'd have the balls to do that
lemaymiami
Member
One last thought about this incident.... it's probably just me -but I'd advise anyone that's done this sort of thing to get real shy when offered lots of face time and celebrity.... Those three have just become poster boys for the bad guys. I'd like to be wrong here but in a world where young idiots think joining the bad guys is something worthwhile getting famous after doing the right thing isn't something I'd look forward to. My only son is in the military and that's the advise I'd give, if asked....
X-Rap
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Yes their names and home towns being plastered throughout the media makes them and their families vulnerable for sure. I'm surprised given the very open threats that have been made by the Islamic Terrorists.
I appreciate their actions and encourage all to at least consider and discuss how they would react. As has been discussed above, friends and family probably have an edge in these situations.
I appreciate their actions and encourage all to at least consider and discuss how they would react. As has been discussed above, friends and family probably have an edge in these situations.
alsaqr
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Today the President of France decorated those three young men and two others with the Legion of Honor.
old lady new shooter
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"One account I read indicated that when the wanna be terrorists weapons failed, he pulled a box cutter and Spencer Stone was wounded during the take down."
Yep, he cut him a lot in the neck and hand, one thumb was pretty much severed, they reattached it in the hospital. Stone is just amazing, not only in that condition did he go on to save the life of the guy the terrorist managed to shoot by applying pressure to his wound to keep him from bleeding out, check out the photo where they're evacuating him in a wheelchair afterwards, he's sitting ramrod straight.
Yep, he cut him a lot in the neck and hand, one thumb was pretty much severed, they reattached it in the hospital. Stone is just amazing, not only in that condition did he go on to save the life of the guy the terrorist managed to shoot by applying pressure to his wound to keep him from bleeding out, check out the photo where they're evacuating him in a wheelchair afterwards, he's sitting ramrod straight.
old lady new shooter
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Agree 1000%, I'm with the folks who only agree to be interviewed if their name isn't given, their face isn't shown, and their voice is disguised.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...cle_78681833-db77-5612-810c-51dc12987cec.html
Mr Norman has it figured out! You just need to think about possible scenarios a little so you aren't shocked into inaction if something happens. Enter a new place, look for the ways in and out, get a feel for the normal flow of things and ask yourself, if a man with a gun came in there, where would I go, what would I do? "Wargame" possible scenarios in your head before time. I'm not saying that you need to spend hours worrying about it and making detailed plans, no plan survives contact anyway. I'm saying if you take just a couple minutes and think about the possible things that could go wrong, you will be way ahead of the curve if something does happen.
Mr Norman has it figured out! You just need to think about possible scenarios a little so you aren't shocked into inaction if something happens. Enter a new place, look for the ways in and out, get a feel for the normal flow of things and ask yourself, if a man with a gun came in there, where would I go, what would I do? "Wargame" possible scenarios in your head before time. I'm not saying that you need to spend hours worrying about it and making detailed plans, no plan survives contact anyway. I'm saying if you take just a couple minutes and think about the possible things that could go wrong, you will be way ahead of the curve if something does happen.
old lady new shooter
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^^^^
Really glad to see people standing up and speaking the truth as a result of this event.
The father of Skarlatos was interviewed on MSNBC and said, "“It’s better to die like a lion that be slaughtered like sheep. And this terrorist coward deserved what he got, and the PC crowd needs to recognize terrorism for what it is." (per http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...-needs-to-recognize-terrorism-for-what-it-is/)
Really glad to see people standing up and speaking the truth as a result of this event.
The father of Skarlatos was interviewed on MSNBC and said, "“It’s better to die like a lion that be slaughtered like sheep. And this terrorist coward deserved what he got, and the PC crowd needs to recognize terrorism for what it is." (per http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...-needs-to-recognize-terrorism-for-what-it-is/)
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