Back up guns.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Yep, I know motor skills deteriorate in a fight. I can't keep them from it by applying high capcity magazines, lighting fast reloads or deploying bugs. I can have a dramatic affect on them by applying training. For me (and everyone is different) I predict a factor of 10. If I want my fighting shots to be in a 10 inch circle, my practice shots had better be in a 1 inch circle. As a lifelong revolver shooter, I don't approach my training with the idea of getting multiple shots if I miss. I train to hit mulitiple targets (usually 4, 4" square swinging targets) quickly. Hitting the first time is what I believe is most important.

Every monkey has his own swing. Its a free country, well sorta. So carry, shoot, train the way you want to bet your life, and may you never have to prove yourself.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

If I have to loan a gun to someone to back me up, I still want a backup. That's why I mostly carry three.

ECS

 

[NCHornet]

Mavracer,
It is perfectly clear to me that you have never been in a SD situation where you had to draw your weapon.
You have stated that you believe your timed IDPA practice is the same as a SD situation. Tell me this, when is the last time one of those IDPA targets shot back at you, caught you by surprise etc.....? I hope you never have to draw your weapon in this type of situation, but if you do you will quickly learn that your body reacted in a manner that it had never done before.
Let me say for the record that I believe in training and lots of it. The more movements that you can store in muscle memory the better off you will be. The more time you have to take and think about what you are doing the more time the BG has to be on top of you. there are many forms of training, this can be drawing your weapon in your living room, practicing reloads in the bedroom and all sorts of firing exercises that all help, but there remains no way to 100% replicate what happens to our bodies defense systems during a SD situation. Those that have been in this situation will understand and agree with what I am stating.

 

[mavracer]

Hornet,
Look, you may now want to say training is important,and I agree.yes I have had to draw my gun,luckily that was enough,but my draw and sight picture happened just like it had 10,000 times before.
you may have not ment to but your first post is clear.you said your friend with all the training only connected 1 for 6,so your worried that in the heat of battle your motor skills will not be good enough so you feel the need to carry a high cap gun.
now that you wan't to agree that training is the only thing you can do to prepare.I'll be done because we are hijacking the thread.
as to tho OP I don't think of it as a BUG or just extra ammo so much as more options for drawing with either hand.

 

[koja48]

Seems like Autos need more backup

I carry 2 so I can use either hand . . . not because my 1911 is unreliable. I shoot both at least weekly & have the utmost of confidence in them & me. My second is a semi-auto, also . . . I find them more comfortable to carry. Point is, carry that with which you are proficient & take the necessary time get proficient. Defending yourself if the SHTF needs to be an instinctive reaction & that comes with much practice.

 

[Alfadog]

I wonder how many who do not carry a second gun have ever tried to draw their carry gun with their other hand. Try it some time. You don't need a timer to realize how slow it is. Then try some one hand malfunction clearance drills just for fun. Pretty eye opening.

Plus, the other advantage of a second gun is that if someone asks you if you are carrying a gun, you can say "No, I'm not carrying A gun."

 

[S&Wfan]

Mavracer wrote:

Hornet,
Look, you may now want to say training is important,and I agree.yes I have had to draw my gun,luckily that was enough,but my draw and sight picture happened just like it had 10,000 times before.
you may have not ment to but your first post is clear.you said your friend with all the training only connected 1 for 6,so your worried that in the heat of battle your motor skills will not be good enough so you feel the need to carry a high cap gun . . .

Everything goes out the window when the BG is shooting at you.

Kyle was in our gun club, and a very, very good pistol shot (unlike many LEOs). He was also on an elite team of deputy sheriffs in our county that patrolled the interstate outside of town for drug runners and such. Friendly, caring . . . and confident.

His big mistake was probably trusting his skills on his full size Glock .40S&W too much, for when this event happened, he passed at grabbing the 12 guage in the front of his crusier.

Kyle was shot ten times, hit in both arms and legs, shot in the butt . . . he took a couple of others in his chest, with one getting inside his body armor. As bullets lance his body, over and over, he's painful screams are heard via his uniform-mounted camera.

Yep . . . our fine motor skill control goes out the window. He never gave up and kept fighting, somehow even lifting his handgun to fire at his attacker as the attacker ran back to his truck for more ammo for his M1.

How he kept in the fight, with legs and arms shot is beyond me. Would a BUG have helped. After being shot some, he's heard to say, "Shoot, shoot, gun down!" Maybe so, for his Glock is now of no use to him. It's probably hard to reload when you are shot in the arms and your main gun is down.

Maybe a BUG would have saved his life at that point. Unfortunately, the killer reloaded and returned, attacking military style. Finally, and just still barely in camera, the killer can be seen carefully aiming for his final "killing" shot to Kyle's head, as he shouts "Die Mother_____." Mercifully, Kyle is off camera.

Kyle was a great pistol shot, but he lost this fight, and left behind a young wife, an 18 month old child, and had learned that day that they were expecting their second.

Kyle has been gone almost ten years now. He was just 22 years old. Yep, this outstanding handgunner discovered too late how things change when someone is intent on killing you.

WATCH THIS VIDEO, if you have the stomach. Thank God that Kyle is out of view of his cruiser's dash mounted camera. This video is now used to train LEOs across the country and has surely saved some lives of some LEOs. I'm sure Kyle would have been pleased that it has. WARNING: THIS VIDEO CAN BE VERY DISTURBING TO MANY PEOPLE, so most should avoid watching it. However, this video may save the lives of others in so doing. But please, use discression.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1364316137

The murderer is on death row . . . a Vietnam veteran who just snapped.

Kyle managed to gut shoot his killer once with his .40S&W . . . to no serious effect.

There's no such thing as too many guns or ammo. Kyle had his Glock 22 and three more high cap. magazines. It still wasn't enough for a crazed vet with an M1 carbine!

IMHO, carrying a BUG ain't zackly a bad idea. Equally as important, we don't need to ever get so confident of our handgun skills to where we feel that we can handle any situation as if it were a benign range competiton.

Food for thought.

 

[Rexster]

The deputy, may he rest in peace, was a good guy, but a back-up gun has nothing to do with this scenario. When the moment comes, a good guy needs to act, and he hesitated to do what needed to be done when he still had the advantage.

 

[Rexster]

This video has been studied up, down, and sideways by LE trainers for several years now. I truly wish the deputy would have prevailed. He was, by all indications, an excellent peace officer, who made a serious error in judgement. We usually survive our first few such encounters, by luck or providence, until we become hardened enough to turn off the nice guy part of us when needed.

 

[S&Wfan]

Yes, a real tragedy. He was a nice guy, not willing to end the life of another . . . and not understanding that other people would have no problem ending his.

Then again, this same scenario applies to virtually all of us, both LEO and private citizens. When does the point come during a hostile situation when we need to actually shoot the BG before he begins shooting at us.

Naturally, there's no clear-cut answer to this troubling question, especially for private citizens of course.

Kyle's folks still own the local bowling alley and, for years provided bowling pins for the clubs pin matches. They are good people and they raised a good son.

T.

 

[Rexster]

The deputy could also have gotten into his patrol car and honorably retreated, to wait for back-up. He had the time. Once the bad guy has signaled his hostility, and started reaching into his vehicle, ignoring commands, it is time to change the equation, one way or another. I don't want to derail this thread with off-topic subject matter, which should probably go into Strategies and Tactics in its own thread. As I recall, there was a window of something like 15+ seconds in which the deputy could have justifiably used lethal force, before the bad guy actually got his weapon into action. During part of that time, furtive moves by the bad guy were a clue a weapon was about to be deployed, and then the weapon itself became visible for a period of time before it was fired. This not being a law enforcement forum, and out of respect for the deputy, I don't want to discuss what I would have done in this scenario, or start a Monday morning quarterbacking session.

 

[Erik]

As mentioned, the analysis of Deputy Dinkheller's slaying is taught across the land in law enforcement settings. The lessons learned were, as with many things in the proffession, learned the hard way. That said, there isn't a BUG chapter in any of the lesson plans I'm familiar with. Why not? A BUG wouldn't likley have altered the outcome.

Anyway, the threads not about the transition form a low risk to a high risk vehicle stop, what a particular deputy did well or wrong, or whether a BUG introduced near the end of events would have mattered or not in his surviving a very bad situation. I don't see the situation or analysis as relevant.

The threads about what the average person going about his or her average day "needs." I say you don't "need" a BUG, two, or more. I'm not saying don't carry them, mind you, just that you don't "need" them.

I'm very interested in situations or analyses were BUGs were used given the thread's context. I'm as yet unaware of any. Any articles, videos, or "let me tell you what happened" stories?

Best - Erik

 

[mavracer]

S&WFAN wrote

Everything goes out the window when the BG is shooting at you.

ok I've read your post and don't understand your reference to my post.
now I have not seen the video you referenced.but reading your account and the accounts of the others, I fail to understand, with all respect for the fallen officer,why you would reference my post.I don't see where round count would have helped the officer.tactics and accuracy would have from all accounts he waited too long,waiting til your outgunned is not good tactics.

There's no such thing as too many guns or ammo. Kyle had his Glock 22 and three more high cap. magazines. It still wasn't enough for a crazed vet with an M1 carbine!

and my contention is while round count is nice,it shouldn't be part of your tactics.
now I'm going to put my flame retardant suit on because I understand that animals don't shoot back.when I first started hunting my father gave me a singleshot and I learned to make the first shot count.now even though I hunt with an auto my goal is the same make the first shot count.I have also read a little from guys who have survived a few gun battles and the make your shots count mentality I have is sound.high cap and backups are a poor crutch if you dont mak each shot count.
I hope that none of us ever have to fire shots in anger,but for the love of god go into life with a attatude,us good guys need a little bad guy mindset make the other F***** pay HIT THEM.

 

[Strings]

Personally, when law allows (I'm in WI), I'll carry 2 or more. Not out of a paranoid worry that my primary will fail, but to ensure that I can get at a gun when/if need arises...

I have my 1911 at 4 o'clock IWB. When sitting, I am unable to reach it... so the Smith K frame goes off-side, slightly canted for cross-draw. From that position, I can draw it with either hand quite easily...

My "always" gun is a Seecamp .32. The ideal gun for self-defense? No... but I stand with my hands in my pockets regularly anyway...

Others can be added as clothing/setting dictate (a .38 in a coat pocket during the winter, ferinstance)...