Bad feeling

[Charley345]

jcwit,

The batch method is how I always did it with my single stage rock chucker. But I was so anxious to use my brand new turret press I couldn't help it

Chuck

 

[Tomcat47]

Kinetic hammer will 100% make you feel better!

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

I'd pull them, then I suggest you get a loading block and batch load, check the cases for powder just before seating a bullet. That is checking all 50 cases in the loading block at one time with a flashlight.

in my experience, this won't always work. it's hard to spot a double charge when you're loading 3.0 gr of powder in .380 auto, especially when you're staring down at 50 charged cases in a loading block. might work fine for the OP and his loads, though.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

5 grain charges of HP-38. mixed brass and nickel cases. Weighing them wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzies. Good thought though.

I agree, too many variables and too light a charge to really be sure...
It was just a thought. (and a bad one lol)

 

[vtuck2]

Guys,

I am totally new to reloading so don't laugh if this question is dumb.

But why could you not weigh each round on a gram scale??

V

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Guys,

I am totally new to reloading so don't laugh if this question is dumb.

But why could you not weigh each round on a gram scale??

V

As we were discussing, there are too many variables to be sure the difference you're seeing is the powder charge, especially since the brass is not the same. Different brass headstamps can have vastly different weights so there's no way of knowing where the difference in weight is coming from.

 

[jcwit]

Plus even the soot from previous loadings weigh something, and we're talking about very small amounts here.

Furthermore in reloading we generally weigh in grains.

 

[BYJO4]

If you have doubts, I would pull the bullets. It is better to be safe plus have the peace of mind when on the firing line.

 

[GLOOB]

in my experience, this won't always work. it's hard to spot a double charge when you're loading 3.0 gr of powder in .380 auto, especially when you're staring down at 50 charged cases in a loading block. might work fine for the OP and his loads, though.

Then don't look down and stare at all 50. For small charges and/or small-necked cartridges, hold the flashlight next to your head and sweep your whole head across each row, looking straight down each individual case as it passes. You are directly comparing each charge to the previous, and a double charge should be obvious. Heck, I sometimes pick out and weigh a charge or two that looks like it might be off a couple tenths, simply for accuracy reasons.

If you're still nervous, you could try a bulkier powder.

 

[rcmodel]

You can weigh loaded rounds in grains, grams, pennyweights, carets, or furlongs per fortnight, and it still won't detect dangerous variances in the powder charges.

Don't waste your time trying.
And above all, don't bet on it working to detect an over or under charge.

rc

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

If you're still nervous, you could try a bulkier powder.

nah, i think i'll just keep doing it my way.

 

[gamestalker]

Any doubt is enough reason to pull all of them! After you've done that, you need to incorporate a step that will leave zero question. The best thing to do if double charges are something you just don't have 100% confidence in preventing, switch to a slow burning powder. My personal choice of powders has always been slow burning one's, as per application. Those type of powders don't ever give me problems, and they are far less spikey, so variances of +/- .1 grs. aren't really felt or visable on the brass for that matter.

If you have any HS6 or Longshot on hand, see if a minimum double charge will fit in the case? Using a 200 gr. JHP or lead bullet, the minimum charge for HS6 is 8.2 grs., and the HP38 is 5.2 grs., according to Hogdon. If you try to drop even the minimum double charge of HS6 in the case (16.4 grs.), I bet it will spill over? On the other hand I'm fairly certain 10.4 grs. of HP38 won't spill over?

Just my thoughts on the subject. Double charges, or over charges, are the single most critical factor in reloading. And when it comes to what level of acceptance is applied to this particular, 0% is the only number that can apply. So what ever it takes, you must find a method, or mind set if thats the problem, that will completely eliminate the risk and lack of confidence your experiencing as a result.
GS

 

[LiveLife]

vtuck2, as rcmodel posted, it won't matter due to too many variables.

Here's an example using 200-230 gr 45ACP load with 5.0 gr of W231/HP-38:

Let's say you double-charged a 5.0 grain powder load which would be an extra 5.0 grains added to the round weight.

Since 200-230 gr 45ACP lead bullet weight can vary by 2-5+ gr and case weight can vary by several grains, a double-charged round could possibly weigh the same or even less than a single 5.0 gr charge case.

If you're still nervous, you could try a bulkier powder.

I used to think that way when I first started reloading but now subscribe to the notion that better reloading practice maybe to ensuring your reloading process so you do not double charge regardless of the powder you use. Counting on the extra powder charge to spill out of the case to detect a double charge is kinda like using training wheels on a Harley - No, they don't offer them as an option. You simply just learn to ride without them from day one. Besides, there are loads that even bulkier powders won't spill out of the case when double charged and that will result in a DOUBLE and COMPRESSED charge!

 

[denton]

The strategy that will not work is pulling a random sample of 15. That offers no protection.

There is a method short of immediately pulling all the bullets: Put all the cartridges in a box such that you can locate any given cartridge again. Weigh each of them, and record the data in one column of a spreadsheet and email it to me. My email is available on this board.

I have the stat tools to determine whether a 5 grain difference is detectable (which I'd bet that it is), and to identify the double charges. Takes about 5 minutes on this end. What I'll report back is whether I can reliably detect the double charge, and, if so, whether any cartridges are double charged.

The variation for case weights and bullet weights do not add linearly. The actual situation statistically favors you a bit more than you might suspect.

If I can't give you a reliable answer, we'll know and then you can always pull the bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

denton, come on, your method must be accurate to detect down to ONE round - Can you "guarantee" that?

With the variables OP posted (mixed range brass and 45 caliber bullet weight), there are too many variables to ENSURE accurately detecting a double charge by weighing loaded rounds (see my post #38).

If there is a chance of "one" double charged round in the batch, my vote is for pulling the bullets.

 

[dickttx]

Today must have been a distracting day.
This morning I was working up a load for .38 Super using new Starline brass, 5.6gn of HP38, and PD 115gn FMJ bullets.
I was loading 15 rounds to test at my next outing.
I had previously weighed all 15 of the bullets and was weighing all the powder charges.
At the fifth round I threw my powder charge and reached for my scale pan. It was already on the scale with powder in it!
I was placing them in a 100 round plastic cartridge box, so I knew exactly which the first five were. I continued loading the remaining 10 rounds, but checked the weights of several cases with the primers inserted.
Using a small electronic scale I weighed the last loaded cartridge and set the scale to tare.
I then weighed all fifteen rounds and noted the difference. Most were within .4 grains, with one off by 1 grain. I presumed that if I had missed charging a case, it would have been off by approximately 5.6 grains.
I did put a note in the box to single load the first five cartridges.

 

[Neutered10mm]

+1. I would choose peace of mind over anything. Better safe and be able to sleep restfully at night than be nursing an injured body part.

I know how you feel.

Once when I first started reloading, I mixed up some load data for another powder (yup, I was in a rush and distracted). When I got to the range and shot the first round, instead of the "bang" I was expecting, I got "BOOM!". After bringing the pistol down from above my head, I knew exactly what I had done.

After checking for body injury and soiled underwear (it was dry ), I packed up and drove home saying, "Boy, I won't ever DO THAT again!" After that incident, talk about me being "gun shy"!!!

With determination, I sat down and went over my reloading steps and made a step-by-step checklist and added Quality Control (QC) checks into my reloading procedures. Whatever steps that made me wonder or gave me the "bad feeling," I modified the practice and/or added the proper QC check. Perhaps you can review your reloading steps and modify and/or add QC steps?

Sounds EXACTLY like I went through after the kB! 3 weeks ago. Last week at the range was my first time shooting a gun since then and I ran 100 factory rounds through. Each night I would meticulously breakdown my L-N-L AP and go over each station making dummy rounds. I pulled each die apart, cleaned it completely and then put them all back and repeated the process again and again. I probably spent a solid 8 hours dialing in the press. I now scale check the first 10 rounds and only when all 10 are throwing the exact gr. of powder do I start the run. After that, it's every 5th round. Glad to report, I sent my first set of reloads after the kB down range today and I'm working the cobwebs out.

If you aren't 100% sure, do what it takes to be 100% sure. I will never have a doubt now with my super anal approach. My biggest problem now is forgetting to push forward about once every 200 rounds or so and I don't seat a primer and it makes a mess. It gives me time to clean the press though, so it's all good.

 

[Blue68f100]

I then weighed all fifteen rounds and noted the difference. Most were within .4 grains, with one off by 1 grain. I presumed that if I had missed charging a case, it would have been off by approximately 5.6 grains.
I did put a note in the box to single load the first five cartridges.

Dickttx, You can have more than 5 gr dev with just brass and some bullets. So unless you sorted all your brass and bullets you have no way of knowing if one is off by weighting the competed round.

 

[Mike 27]

5gr's in a 45acp leaves a lot of space, weighing them with case variations even with the same head stamp will not work. Inspecting visually is a good idea and I strongly encourage it but this charge in 45acp is hard to tell variations. I would pull them as most have stated. I am saying this because I recommend for this many to pick up a collet puller as well. I finally broke down and did it and pulled 100 in about 30 minutes. The puller was 20 bucks, the bad thing is each caliber is another 12 bucks or so for the RCBS. Funny thing is the wife actually encouraged this purchase as she always leaves the room when I reach for the whack-a-mole puller (doesn't bother me anymore but she runs anyway). Good Luck...

 

[Cherokee305]

If your not 100 percent sure, I would pull each and every one. Or burry them in the yard and start over.

 

[denton]

denton, come on, your method must be accurate to detect down to ONE round - Can you "guarantee" that?

With the variables OP posted (mixed range brass and 45 caliber bullet weight), there are too many variables to ENSURE accurately detecting a double charge by weighing loaded rounds (see my post #38).

If there is a chance of "one" double charged round in the batch, my vote is for pulling the bullets.

What I do all day, every day is deal with situations like this.

The method I have described is sound. The two worst things that can happen are: 1) The natural variation of the process will indeed be great enough that you can't discriminate, in which case the OP is back to pulling the bullets, or 2) We can discriminate, in which case we conservatively pull anything that looks suspicious, and that risks pulling bullets from a few good cartridges to ensure that we get all the bad ones.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Funny, I just posted on a similar issue the other day, and it turned out my concern was unfounded, as it was based on the powder charge I could find after pulling a bullet using the hammer/kinetic puller ("Leaky Bullet Puller?"). I still did the safe thing and pulled 34 bullets, then did the single-stage loading block approach, weighing each charge, to re-seat those 34 bullets. The near-perfect powder throws reassured me on the whole process (while destroying my confidence in using the kinetic bullet puller to check charges in finished rounds!).

Several here have mentioned some process tricks that make discovering/resolving these kinds of doubts less onerous. Checking every 10 rounds (or every 5, when you're "itchy" about a load or your powder measure) by weighing the charge has worked well for me.

Another thing I do is to always fill a loading block with finished rounds in a certain order - starting at the front left corner (as the block sits on the bench facing me), filling the rows front-to-back and left-to-right. This way, having checked at least one round per "row" of 10(and always checking the same one, usually the 10th one in the last hole), when I discover a problem, I can pull/check just a few rounds to resolve my doubts. I have some idea where the issue "started" in my production run.

I visually check each case for a powder charge - using a Lee turret, I sometimes can do this without taking the case out of the shellholder, but for example with light charges in .357 cases I have to remove the case and peer in (all of this under a good worklight that's positioned near the press). This is a "squib check" (no charge) only - my main concern. I have spent some time and found that I simply cannot visually discriminate between a proper charge and a light/heavy one in most situations. 9mm, and 38sp using Trail Boss, are happy exceptions to this pattern - with those the "squib check" is easy.

By adhering to QC procedures - visual "squib check", weighing the charge every 5-10 rounds, filling the loading block in a set order and always checking the same round in a given row - I feel pretty confident in my loads. As for my needs I do not load max loads in high-pressure calibers like .357, but generally low-to-mid-range loads, I have a margin of safety sort of built in. Squibs are my main concern, and generally those are no big deal to resolve (have the little rubber mallet and a nice brass squib rod in the range bag).

 

[109Hammer]

Update

Ok, within the first 20 pulled i found one case with no powder at all, (at least i found where the double charge came from). So i'm obviously going to pull them all, then resize all the cases before starting up again.

This is an embarrassing thing to have to post, but I wanted to show that it can happen to anyone, and to always go with your gut feeling on something. I'm not an expert reloader by any means. I've only been doing it for about a year and a half. But i always have in the past kept with a strict method:

1. A clean reloading area.
2. using loading blocks to move from one stage to another.
3. visually inspect each case from one step to another, and always visually check each charged block with a led flashlight before seating a bullet.

The second your not focused 100%, things can go wrong. Thanks for everyones help. Cheers.............

 

[gamestalker]

You've got some serious issues to work out. If it were me, I would incorporate any, or all fail safe steps, to prevent something real bad from happening. Now your finding squibs! Pull all of them, and then before you start over do what ever is necessary to get it right with 100% confidence. Your head doesn't seem to be in this hobby. this is a hobby that requires our full attention and focus on the task at hand.

A bad feeling is actually an under statement as to what happening here. As to what I said in my previous post about using slow burning powders. I never started using them because they prevented double charges, it just worked out that way. But if you are having this much trouble that might be the way to go. As someone said a double charge is a double charge, but if you double charge a slow burning powder for 45 ACP (HS6) it is going to make a mess all over the loading block which is an almost impossible thing to over look!

 

[Neutered10mm]

No doubt ... this is a hobby where you are literally putting your life in your own hands. I make it a point now to not allow ANY distractions. My reloading room is locked with me in it and whenever someone knocks, they are asked to leave and I will come to them when I'm at a stopping point. After my kB, I have completely rethought my QC/QA procedures for EVERY step involved. After having a gun blow up in your hands, and you still have all your fingers with no damage to anything but your ego and gun, you tend to be even more respectful of the power that so few grains of powder can produce.