Bigdtc
Member
CZ-52....Get Some!
bad guys with body armour
- Thread starter General Geoff
- Start date
- Status
VARifleman
Member
The ones that don't get caught and stay alive have plenty, and they are the ones you really have to worry about. Don't ever let yourself underestimate your adversary.
FerFAL
Member
Head shot? Maybe, but I also carry a spare 19 round mag with Hirtemberg AP 9mm ammo.
I'm shooting for the chest
FerFAL
I'm shooting for the chest
FerFAL
Also, remember that most thugs are probably going to go to a gun show or some such. Most gun stores I've been in don't have armor in stock. Compounded by the fact that good armor is expensive and usually custom ordered, the thugs getting it from gun shows are more than likely buying flak jackets (can't say I see much, if any, real armor at shows).
Those are a far cry from real armor and very prominent in medium and larger sized gun shows. A direct shot from a handgun will more than likely penetrate a flak jacket.
Those are a far cry from real armor and very prominent in medium and larger sized gun shows. A direct shot from a handgun will more than likely penetrate a flak jacket.
twinhairdryers
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2006
- Messages
- 147
Staggering 12gauge rounds will create a lot of vest problems
Not to dismiss this thread, but for those who are assuming that a 12ga, which is still proven to be in the top one or two close range arms, regardless of cover or vests, look at some of the 12 gauge slug damage on small arms vests.
The key is to mix loads of buck and slugs in your shotty. If you think that a small arms kevlar level II vest will stop a 3" magnum slug from a 12 gauge - i'll challenge you to a shot test. Even if this round does not completely clear the protection, it will certainly provide enough disabling movement of your target to allow followup shots, which will go through the kevlar, or if it happens to be a chambered buckshot round, it will be not fun to figure where the holes go. Remember that a single 12 or 9 rounds of 00 buck is the same as 12 or 9 rounds of 32 or 38acp (differs by manuf) shot at the same time. Watch some of the training videos where would be bad buy has 10 shots of buck and slugs at about 2 Hz rate with a BG in a level III vest. The best is nice for handgun rounds, and off-center rifle rounds, but not so much for neck shot buck or double tap slugs.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/educational.htm
Not to dismiss this thread, but for those who are assuming that a 12ga, which is still proven to be in the top one or two close range arms, regardless of cover or vests, look at some of the 12 gauge slug damage on small arms vests.
The key is to mix loads of buck and slugs in your shotty. If you think that a small arms kevlar level II vest will stop a 3" magnum slug from a 12 gauge - i'll challenge you to a shot test. Even if this round does not completely clear the protection, it will certainly provide enough disabling movement of your target to allow followup shots, which will go through the kevlar, or if it happens to be a chambered buckshot round, it will be not fun to figure where the holes go. Remember that a single 12 or 9 rounds of 00 buck is the same as 12 or 9 rounds of 32 or 38acp (differs by manuf) shot at the same time. Watch some of the training videos where would be bad buy has 10 shots of buck and slugs at about 2 Hz rate with a BG in a level III vest. The best is nice for handgun rounds, and off-center rifle rounds, but not so much for neck shot buck or double tap slugs.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/educational.htm
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
.223's shooting light or middleweight JHP's penetrate less than most handgun JHP's, and have less wounding potential after penetrating even a single wall.
From Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant", Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45:
That article has quite a few gelatin tests, and some of the lighter .223 JHP's are dismissed by the author as being not penetrative enough for police duty use (though I think the 55-grain JHP's are ideal for HD).
Ammunition choice is the critical variable; don't use FMJ unless you live in the boonies, unless you have brick walls as backstops.
The most popular defensive carbine in U.S. homes is undoubtedly the AR-15 platform, which is of course an autoloader. To me, using an autoloader is pretty much a given, though a lever-action in .357 would probably be a pretty decent choice as well.
That's still a good choice, but I don't think that the consensus holds anymore that it is the hands-down best choice for everyone. It is one good choice out of many.
Quite so.
I think small-caliber carbines (particularly .223) do have some advantages over a handgun if you have time to access the carbine. I wouldn't necessarily make the choice based on the ability to penetrate a vest, but if you choose a rifle for other reasons, it's an additional plus, I suppose.
VARifleman
Member
I've seen it. III was the highest level they had there I believe, it was in July.
Hold a 12 guage 4 inches off of your ribs and pull the trigger a couple times and let me know how it feels. Bruising is a given, craked ribs are not unimaginable.
As for the FN five seven or PS90 is the ammo that is widely available for them capable of pentrating a vest? I thought that the ss197s and other widely available rounds couldn't pentrate vests only the SS190 rounds.
He might, or he might keep coming. The whole idea behind current ammunition standards is to force attackers bodies to shut down after being shot so even if your attacker doesn't have the courtesy to know he's been shot and drop over like on tv, they will eventually be forced to. If people with 12ga slug holes through their central mass keep moving and attacking, the shot that didn't even enter their body won't fare any better. The guy wearing body armor and shot with 00 buck might stop, he might not.
This thread, and the internet in general is full of terrible information on the topic. Many people (wrongly I believe) feel that information on body armor should be restricted to leo's only. The end result is a bunch of gun store counter type talk worth about as much. The legendary powers of the 12ga shotgun don't help matters much either. Do the homework for yourself and come up with your own conclusions before you trust anyone's opinion.
Now my opinion...I think you made a fine choice. While its unlikely you'll be shooting any body armor wearing intruders unless you have a bunch of drugs in your house, the ar15 is still a great defensive choice and you'll be covered just in case.
Geronimo45
Member
I don't think you have too much risk of home invasion w/ body armor, unless you're really 'special.' That means very rich/influential/unlucky/mob boss/so forth.
Body armor is expensive. Desert Eagles are expensive. Much as your average street thug might like holding up a convenience store with one, he'd rather spend the money on other things. Ditto for body armor. Unless he knows he's running a high risk of being shot (bank robbery and similar), he probably won't see the need. And if he does, the need probably won't outweigh the desire for beer.
I get the notion from that Hornady TAP .PDF that the 55gr and 62gr rounds didn't penetrate the armor (entry=0 for both), and the 'penetration' listed was just backface deformation/blunt force trauma. So... if you're serious about taking a guy on with armor, as necessary, you might want 75 grainers. But my reading of it could be wrong.
Body armor is expensive. Desert Eagles are expensive. Much as your average street thug might like holding up a convenience store with one, he'd rather spend the money on other things. Ditto for body armor. Unless he knows he's running a high risk of being shot (bank robbery and similar), he probably won't see the need. And if he does, the need probably won't outweigh the desire for beer.
I get the notion from that Hornady TAP .PDF that the 55gr and 62gr rounds didn't penetrate the armor (entry=0 for both), and the 'penetration' listed was just backface deformation/blunt force trauma. So... if you're serious about taking a guy on with armor, as necessary, you might want 75 grainers. But my reading of it could be wrong.
Curiousity
Member
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 148
A handgun is used to fight your way to to the rifle you dropped...
Enough said... put .223 or 7.62x39 into the bad guy with the cheap vest and he will sit down very quickly...
Enough said... put .223 or 7.62x39 into the bad guy with the cheap vest and he will sit down very quickly...
RockyMtnTactical
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,539
I prefer rifles over a handgun or a shotgun, body armor is only a small reason why I prefer rifles, but it's part of the consideration.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
You are correct. NIJ Level II will stop currently sold non-LEO 5.7x28mm, AFAIK, and Level IIIA will stop any 5.7x28mm ever sold to non-LEO's, per the BATFE.
FerFAL
Member
I’ve read a few reports on gunfights, both here and in other places.
I’ve never read, heard or saw anyone “fight his way to his rifle” .
Can anyone provide one or two accounts where a person fought his way to his rifle?
FerFAL
Ske1etor
Member
I never really thought of it as a "Fight your way to your rifle" type of thing... I think of it as "When your rifle runs out of ammo... and your choices are a menacing growl or a handgun...." type of deal. That's just me personally.
I have long suspected that if a criminal had the foresight to wear body armor, he or she would likely go all-out and get the Titanium or ceramic plates to stop up to a .30-06 Sprg. I may be wrong.
I agree with the concept of over-penetration, and that's why I like our home. If a rifle round over-penetrates, it simply lands in a 20 foot dirt hill, also we have brick walls, and the neighbors' houses are also brick.
There are shotgun slugs available that fill both bills (shotgun/rifle). Myself, I prefer to have a Rem 870 with buckshot/"slugs", but not just any slug. If the buckshot doesn't stop or convince the bad guy to stop, the first slug would: (link: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/...-piercing-ammo&cName=12-gauge-specialtyexotic ). Notice the steel core.
That said, I suspect that the pure blunt force trauma of the Remington BuckHammer (Link: http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/slugs/buckhammer.asp ) would likely render the bad guy incapacitated by sheer. I have not had time to test that, but would like to. I think it would be interesting to combine a martial arts test with some soft body armor, i.e., lay/hang the soft body armor over 2, 1" pine boards to see if the sternum/ribs would be broken by the slug, and to see just how deep those slugs do penetrate.
I agree with the concept of over-penetration, and that's why I like our home. If a rifle round over-penetrates, it simply lands in a 20 foot dirt hill, also we have brick walls, and the neighbors' houses are also brick.
There are shotgun slugs available that fill both bills (shotgun/rifle). Myself, I prefer to have a Rem 870 with buckshot/"slugs", but not just any slug. If the buckshot doesn't stop or convince the bad guy to stop, the first slug would: (link: http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/...-piercing-ammo&cName=12-gauge-specialtyexotic ). Notice the steel core.
That said, I suspect that the pure blunt force trauma of the Remington BuckHammer (Link: http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/slugs/buckhammer.asp ) would likely render the bad guy incapacitated by sheer. I have not had time to test that, but would like to. I think it would be interesting to combine a martial arts test with some soft body armor, i.e., lay/hang the soft body armor over 2, 1" pine boards to see if the sternum/ribs would be broken by the slug, and to see just how deep those slugs do penetrate.
sm
member
ADEE is the suggested model for civilians
If you are LEO, then you have Dept Protocol to follow.
Re: Body Armor
LEOs and Military I know, hate Body Armor.
I hated it the few times I was yelled at to wear it.
Criminals hate it as well.
Yes, LEOs, Military, and even civilians do wear body armor.
There is a proper time and place to do so.
Criminals are the same way, yeah they got it, and they do the same thing LEO, Military and everyone else.
1. They hate it.
2. They do not wear it 24/7/52.
3. They posture about having it, and then do not grab it to use, as it is pain in the rear end to deal with.
ADEE in layman's terms since we have w-a-y too much Acronym-Speak in society is;
Don't go where trouble is, leave when trouble shows up.
What folks don't get is:
IF you are not where trouble is, or if you leave when trouble shows up, then you lessen the chances of being a victim.
When a drug bust goes down, the drug folks are not running to put on body armor, they are flushing dope, and hauling butt out the back door!
Hey! That is a pretty good Strategy & Tactic in my book!
They have taken steps to Prevent Trouble, and when the cell phone rings from the look-out "the man is coming" the criminal takes prudent steps to be gone, and leave no evidence.
Guns:
There is no magic talisman.
Just like Law Abiding, there are different Levels of criminals.
Cops, that respond to trouble.
Armored Car Folks that do not run to trouble, instead they are in a setting and job description that makes them more of a target.
We have street punks that run from not very good at being criminals, to Professional thugs.
Everyone has been near a Professional Thug, and never knew it.
They do not advertise, they blend in, they give the perspective they want you to see.
No offense, still you are not worth their time and energy to take down.
Their time is money and when they commit a crime, they want the big payoff.
Guns:
One has to choose what works for them in the setting they are in.
Being a civilian, I cannot go around with a long gun slung.
Answering the door with long gun is not easy to do.
So I answer the door with a CCW.
In my activities of daily affairs, [ADLs] I do my best to not advertise anything that will make me a target.
Don't look like prey - think like a criminal.
Blend in
Armored Car folks, use sidearms and PGO shotguns, as they are "visible" with vehicle, uniform, bags of money.
It is hard to not advertise "money" as a armor car guard.
Yeah, pretty good idea to wear that issued vest on the job.
Having assisted ACGs with PGOs, I can assure you they hate the PGOs and they hate the body armor.
Shift over and finally out of uniform, they are not wearing body armor, and the sidearm for those that CCW is on Person.
Why?
Despite the fact they take all the steps they can to prevent trouble, folks open their big fat mouths and "yeah, my neighbor is a ACG and works the <shift> and ...".
It might be a lower level set of illegal ears that hears of this ACG, and then again it might be Professional criminal that hears of this ACG.
Dumb crook might think the ACG brings home a bag of money at night.
Professional is going to think about where that ACG's kid attends Daycare, and where the wife works.
Now with a kid kidnapped, and wife kidnapped, PT wants to know when and where a truck is going to do what.
J.Q.Public with a mundane, simple job, is less likely to be a victim if they will keep their mouths shut, and not advertise everything. IF they will have a neat yard, have motion lights, a dawg and take other prudent steps.
In a court of law, if a thug comes in, and J.Q. Public retreats, even if they do not to retreat, they retreat, they do everything they can to avoid trouble and cannot and they use whatever means they have, including a firearm, then they lessen headaches with such serious matters.
First Responders will see they too prudent steps to prevent trouble, tried the best they could to evade trouble, and they had to stop a threat.
I said stop threat, not kill.
Judges will see all this as well.
Correction Facility, LEOs and other Professionals have enemies.
Heck even a court reporter is a higher risk person than many that post on Internet.
The wife that is a branch bank manager, the coin dealer, mom-n-pop coin dealer, fur store owner, ...
These attract a different element, despite the fact these folks take steps to "blend in" and "not advertise".
Girls and Ladies have more reason to be concerned about Body Armor than most J.Q.Public guys do.
I mean a fella is less likely to get cat calls and promote ideas in a criminals mind than a 13 year, 16 year, 18 year old, female.
Now these folks cannot legally carry a gun concealed.
Jurisdictions vary on what a under age 21 person can do in regard to firearms.
Heck half the posts I see around THR and other fora, there is no guns a 13 year old can shoot.
Members have Ultimate Extreme guns but nothing for a 13 year old to learn to shoot with.
They for sure cannot lift the Ultimate Extreme Shotgun and hold it on a BG and dial 911, or anything else.
Girls, and Ladies do not seem to post much about wearing body armor or having to shoot a threat wearing body armor.
When the criminal over powers your 13 year, daughter, and decides to have his way with her, body armor is not what he will be wearing.
Now the Professional Thugs were not wearing body armor when they kidnapped a wife and kid of a business owner.
Nor were the other part of the team that overpowered the business owner.
He rode around in his trunk, for hours.
His kid was sick, and medicine made the child sleepy, which is good.
Because the wife/mom was babysat by a less "ethical" part of the team and was repeatedly raped during this whole nightmare.
He was forced at gunpoint to open his business, and open safes.
I knew these folks.
Professional Thugs were not wearing body armor when they bypassed an alarm, and were waiting in the home of another business owner and his wife.
They were in separate cars, she went on home, he went to run a quick errand on the way home.
She opens the front door and finds a shotgun at her forehead.
He shows up and opens the front door and his wife has that shotgun barrel in her mouth.
She is babysat, and husband goes back to open business and safes.
I knew these folks.
These folks took prudent steps to be safe.
They had to, insurance companies meddled with them being safe amongst other reasons.
Forget the guns, platforms, caliber wars, and everything else.
Perhaps your 17 year old daughter and wife need to go see SouthNarc.
Maybe a serious defensive driving course as well.
No offense, still you don't look cute in them jeans and T-Shirts like your 17 year daughter does.
You look awful in your wife's mini-skirt, jeans, gym shorts and the like.
Now my suggestion would be to get a notebook and start taking inventory.
-Who are you, and your family?
-Where do live with all the political flavor and legal definitions in the use of force?
-What are you and your families "target rating"?
Meaning, if you work in mundane job, or have enemies because you work/retired from a Correction Facilty, LEO, etc.
Now be brutally honest and access yourself as to how you look to the real world.
Do you advertise by blabbing everything, telling everything, and by visual advertising.
Do you run around with vanity plate, or sticker on windshield, or dress a certain way to draw attention to yourself?
How would you take you down?
How could you get to your daughter, wife...family?
Are you wanting body armor, guns, ammo and the like, and posting to rationalize such a purchase.
Maybe you have bought these things, and need to post to qualify the purchase.
Strategy & Tactics is about Reality.
It is none of my business if you are a stock boy at a grocery store, or if you are coin dealer with keys to a business and safes.
I ain't gonna be at your serious situation.
I don't want to know, as I don't meddle, if your wife works in a correction facility, or is a Juvie Judge and has enemies and you do have some hi-risk to eval in regard to staying safe.
It is my business as a responsible firearm owner and one quite familiar with hi-risk industry, to share some reality.
Reality to Pro Gun Folks, Fence Sitters, and Antis.
I do not have a problem with folks having hardware.
I do have a problem with folks not having software.
Take inventory, be brutally honest, and take prudent steps to keep you and yours safe.
If you are LEO, then you have Dept Protocol to follow.
Re: Body Armor
LEOs and Military I know, hate Body Armor.
I hated it the few times I was yelled at to wear it.
Criminals hate it as well.
Yes, LEOs, Military, and even civilians do wear body armor.
There is a proper time and place to do so.
Criminals are the same way, yeah they got it, and they do the same thing LEO, Military and everyone else.
1. They hate it.
2. They do not wear it 24/7/52.
3. They posture about having it, and then do not grab it to use, as it is pain in the rear end to deal with.
ADEE in layman's terms since we have w-a-y too much Acronym-Speak in society is;
Don't go where trouble is, leave when trouble shows up.
What folks don't get is:
IF you are not where trouble is, or if you leave when trouble shows up, then you lessen the chances of being a victim.
When a drug bust goes down, the drug folks are not running to put on body armor, they are flushing dope, and hauling butt out the back door!
Hey! That is a pretty good Strategy & Tactic in my book!
They have taken steps to Prevent Trouble, and when the cell phone rings from the look-out "the man is coming" the criminal takes prudent steps to be gone, and leave no evidence.
Guns:
There is no magic talisman.
Just like Law Abiding, there are different Levels of criminals.
Cops, that respond to trouble.
Armored Car Folks that do not run to trouble, instead they are in a setting and job description that makes them more of a target.
We have street punks that run from not very good at being criminals, to Professional thugs.
Everyone has been near a Professional Thug, and never knew it.
They do not advertise, they blend in, they give the perspective they want you to see.
No offense, still you are not worth their time and energy to take down.
Their time is money and when they commit a crime, they want the big payoff.
Guns:
One has to choose what works for them in the setting they are in.
Being a civilian, I cannot go around with a long gun slung.
Answering the door with long gun is not easy to do.
So I answer the door with a CCW.
In my activities of daily affairs, [ADLs] I do my best to not advertise anything that will make me a target.
Don't look like prey - think like a criminal.
Blend in
Armored Car folks, use sidearms and PGO shotguns, as they are "visible" with vehicle, uniform, bags of money.
It is hard to not advertise "money" as a armor car guard.
Yeah, pretty good idea to wear that issued vest on the job.
Having assisted ACGs with PGOs, I can assure you they hate the PGOs and they hate the body armor.
Shift over and finally out of uniform, they are not wearing body armor, and the sidearm for those that CCW is on Person.
Why?
Despite the fact they take all the steps they can to prevent trouble, folks open their big fat mouths and "yeah, my neighbor is a ACG and works the <shift> and ...".
It might be a lower level set of illegal ears that hears of this ACG, and then again it might be Professional criminal that hears of this ACG.
Dumb crook might think the ACG brings home a bag of money at night.
Professional is going to think about where that ACG's kid attends Daycare, and where the wife works.
Now with a kid kidnapped, and wife kidnapped, PT wants to know when and where a truck is going to do what.
J.Q.Public with a mundane, simple job, is less likely to be a victim if they will keep their mouths shut, and not advertise everything. IF they will have a neat yard, have motion lights, a dawg and take other prudent steps.
In a court of law, if a thug comes in, and J.Q. Public retreats, even if they do not to retreat, they retreat, they do everything they can to avoid trouble and cannot and they use whatever means they have, including a firearm, then they lessen headaches with such serious matters.
First Responders will see they too prudent steps to prevent trouble, tried the best they could to evade trouble, and they had to stop a threat.
I said stop threat, not kill.
Judges will see all this as well.
Correction Facility, LEOs and other Professionals have enemies.
Heck even a court reporter is a higher risk person than many that post on Internet.
The wife that is a branch bank manager, the coin dealer, mom-n-pop coin dealer, fur store owner, ...
These attract a different element, despite the fact these folks take steps to "blend in" and "not advertise".
Girls and Ladies have more reason to be concerned about Body Armor than most J.Q.Public guys do.
I mean a fella is less likely to get cat calls and promote ideas in a criminals mind than a 13 year, 16 year, 18 year old, female.
Now these folks cannot legally carry a gun concealed.
Jurisdictions vary on what a under age 21 person can do in regard to firearms.
Heck half the posts I see around THR and other fora, there is no guns a 13 year old can shoot.
Members have Ultimate Extreme guns but nothing for a 13 year old to learn to shoot with.
They for sure cannot lift the Ultimate Extreme Shotgun and hold it on a BG and dial 911, or anything else.
Girls, and Ladies do not seem to post much about wearing body armor or having to shoot a threat wearing body armor.
When the criminal over powers your 13 year, daughter, and decides to have his way with her, body armor is not what he will be wearing.
Now the Professional Thugs were not wearing body armor when they kidnapped a wife and kid of a business owner.
Nor were the other part of the team that overpowered the business owner.
He rode around in his trunk, for hours.
His kid was sick, and medicine made the child sleepy, which is good.
Because the wife/mom was babysat by a less "ethical" part of the team and was repeatedly raped during this whole nightmare.
He was forced at gunpoint to open his business, and open safes.
I knew these folks.
Professional Thugs were not wearing body armor when they bypassed an alarm, and were waiting in the home of another business owner and his wife.
They were in separate cars, she went on home, he went to run a quick errand on the way home.
She opens the front door and finds a shotgun at her forehead.
He shows up and opens the front door and his wife has that shotgun barrel in her mouth.
She is babysat, and husband goes back to open business and safes.
I knew these folks.
These folks took prudent steps to be safe.
They had to, insurance companies meddled with them being safe amongst other reasons.
Forget the guns, platforms, caliber wars, and everything else.
Perhaps your 17 year old daughter and wife need to go see SouthNarc.
Maybe a serious defensive driving course as well.
No offense, still you don't look cute in them jeans and T-Shirts like your 17 year daughter does.
You look awful in your wife's mini-skirt, jeans, gym shorts and the like.
Now my suggestion would be to get a notebook and start taking inventory.
-Who are you, and your family?
-Where do live with all the political flavor and legal definitions in the use of force?
-What are you and your families "target rating"?
Meaning, if you work in mundane job, or have enemies because you work/retired from a Correction Facilty, LEO, etc.
Now be brutally honest and access yourself as to how you look to the real world.
Do you advertise by blabbing everything, telling everything, and by visual advertising.
Do you run around with vanity plate, or sticker on windshield, or dress a certain way to draw attention to yourself?
How would you take you down?
How could you get to your daughter, wife...family?
Are you wanting body armor, guns, ammo and the like, and posting to rationalize such a purchase.
Maybe you have bought these things, and need to post to qualify the purchase.
Strategy & Tactics is about Reality.
It is none of my business if you are a stock boy at a grocery store, or if you are coin dealer with keys to a business and safes.
I ain't gonna be at your serious situation.
I don't want to know, as I don't meddle, if your wife works in a correction facility, or is a Juvie Judge and has enemies and you do have some hi-risk to eval in regard to staying safe.
It is my business as a responsible firearm owner and one quite familiar with hi-risk industry, to share some reality.
Reality to Pro Gun Folks, Fence Sitters, and Antis.
I do not have a problem with folks having hardware.
I do have a problem with folks not having software.
Take inventory, be brutally honest, and take prudent steps to keep you and yours safe.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
SM, that is a good write up. Body armor, like guns, arent talismans. When I worked armored car, I hated the damn thing. The vest always rode up into my arm pits and was hot as sin, despite wicking shirts and the like. The van itself looked like a sideboard with a big bullseye on it.
Nowadays, I try to keep low profile. No crazy hats or shirts, no tacticool funk all over me. Normal, blend in with the background. It has even transferred into my choice of vehicle. Nothing screams dont look at me like a late model blue sedan.
I see alot of folks worried about body armor. I dont understand why everyone thinks THEY are the ones to get hit by invaders from space. Ego and overimagination give birth to Paranoia, which can cause more problems than they can imagine. Situational awareness and keeping to one's self will be more powerful of a weapon than even an atomic!
Nowadays, I try to keep low profile. No crazy hats or shirts, no tacticool funk all over me. Normal, blend in with the background. It has even transferred into my choice of vehicle. Nothing screams dont look at me like a late model blue sedan.
I see alot of folks worried about body armor. I dont understand why everyone thinks THEY are the ones to get hit by invaders from space. Ego and overimagination give birth to Paranoia, which can cause more problems than they can imagine. Situational awareness and keeping to one's self will be more powerful of a weapon than even an atomic!
littledoc
Member
Not really. A level IIA vest will give decent protection from slashes and stuff, as well as a variety of blunt trauma (including steering wheels in an auto accident), but a good thrust from a decent blade will go through a vest where the trauma plate is not protecting the material. A broadhead will zip right through. Some broadheads even can create a little hate and discontent with level III without plates.
Trauma plates will stop a broadhead --or knife--without much fuss.
Kevlar is somewhat resistant to cutting, but it's forte is it's resistance to tearing.
It does not actually work that way.
The energy, not the momentum determines the force that results for stopping the projectile.
If you have 500 ft-lbf of energy, and you brought the bullet to a uniform halt in 12 inches, it would be delivering a force of 500 pounds for that foot.
Divide by the cross section of the bullet and you can come up with a pressure per square inch.
It is possible to put enough layers of Kevlar to stop a rifle round.
It gets to bulky to be practical and the blunt force trauma is still more than enough to kill.
By using plates to supplement Kevlar the force is spread out over the larger area of the plate and the blunt force trauma is greatly reduced.
Malodorousroadkill
Member
It seems to me that the .30 carbine still has a place in world. The m1carbine was under 6lbs and a 10 year old girl could use it readily. Its a real pity that this round isn't considered as much. It is the only 'personal defense weapon' caliber ever put into large scale production. The 5.7mm and that weird H&K thingy all WANT to be as successful.
Now as far as body armor goes, I'd like to have some. Not for everyday use, but in situations like we saw in the Katrina aftermath.
Now as far as body armor goes, I'd like to have some. Not for everyday use, but in situations like we saw in the Katrina aftermath.
Gunnerpalace
Member
Criminals will never use SWAT and no-knock tactics either...Oh wait
The legal 5.7 stuff can punch Level 2 if memory serves me.
The legal 5.7 stuff can punch Level 2 if memory serves me.
redneckrepairs
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2005
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- 1,117
Folks this is a non issue . Unless you are targeted by a real unusual team of criminals neither you nor them will have armor soft or otherwise . While i wont say that it cannot or has not happened it would be so rare that it does not come to mind . The criminal we need to think about looks for a victim , not a challenge. As such they " cut an run " early if defense is shown .
Dont worry overmuch about being over run by unicorns , rather worry about the wildebeests who are the normal fare . Sorry folks but untill and unless kidnapping becomes a viable finance option you dont need to worry that the idiot in your house has body armor .
Dont worry overmuch about being over run by unicorns , rather worry about the wildebeests who are the normal fare . Sorry folks but untill and unless kidnapping becomes a viable finance option you dont need to worry that the idiot in your house has body armor .
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