bad guys with body armour

[Hans Esker]

Newbie here so excuse me if I am totally wrong and off base.
Would the Subcarbine .223 pistols that have come out push a bullet to sufficient speeds? Or would it be best to just stick with a carbine?

 

[exar]

Newbie here so excuse me if I am totally wrong and off base.
Would the Subcarbine .223 pistols that have come out push a bullet to sufficient speeds? Or would it be best to just stick with a carbine?

I'm sure it would work fine, if that's all you have. As others have mentioned, I wouldn't be worried just prepared. If you know he has armor on, and is threatening you, use that .223 pistol with a 30 rnd mag. That will probably do the trick. Fire until the threat is stopped.

If you have a .223 carbine, why not use it compared to the pistol? The carbine will be much more accurate and easier to aim. In a house, I reckon room size distances, the pistol should work too being that you will be so close. For HD I always tend to stick with the most accurate thing I have in case I may need to take a shot with a hostage involved and missing with penetration into the other rooms being a high probability under stress.

My HD choices:
1. Sig P228 9mm with internal laser. I keep it by my bed so this is more than likely going to be what is in my hand when woke from deep sleep.
2. Rem 870 12ga 18" barrel folding stock pistol grip loaded with 00 buck. I keep this in the safe and if I have time to get to it, I will.
3. Bushmaster M4 clone with light and laser. I can ID my target easily with the light and it is the most accurate HD weapon in my selection(still working on getting optics for my Sig 556, may replace the M4 if it can out perform the M4).

 

[mljdeckard]

A tactical shotgun or carbine is NOT too long for HD. Hold your hands out in front of you for a pistol stance. Now hold out a AR carbine or an M-1 carbine, or a tactical shotgun. Not much longer, is it?

No pistol round is ever adequate for personal defense. A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have put down in the first place. The only reason we carry pistols is because carrying rifles everywhere is impractical. (I still keep one in my vehicle.) Pistols are used RIGHT NOW. If you ever have time to run and grab a gun, it should be a long gun.

 

[kcshooter]

No pistol round is ever adequate for personal defense.

Yet somehow they save someone's life daily. Hmmm.

 

[Soybomb]

Are you people actually so worried about your house being raided by drug-dealing thug gangs wearing body armor that you find it necessary to create a plan of action?


You should move to a better 'hood then, or at least get your prescription refilled.

Are you really so worried about some tweaker robbing you or nut shooting up an office you're in that you find it neccessary to create a plan of action? You should quit going to those neighborhoods or find a better job then! (final insult unnecessary).

Seriously I find it incredibly improbable that I'll ever need to use a gun anywhere. Home, out...it just isn't likely. If I can protect myself against something with minimal inconvenience though, why not. If you already keep a long gun for protecting yourself in the unlikely event someone breaks into your home, why not investigate if it would be hard to have one that would defeat soft body armor too? It wouldn't be high up on my list of priorities but if you can get it as a freebie, why not?

 

[kcshooter]

If you already keep a long gun for protecting yourself in the unlikely event someone breaks into your home, why not investigate if it would be hard to have one that would defeat soft body armor too?

Where I live, overpenetration is a far more serious concern than the risk of home invasion by a body-armor-clad gang. I doubt that's an uncommon situation.

 

[Soybomb]

Where I live, overpenetration is a far more serious concern than the risk of home invasion by a body-armor-clad gang. I doubt that's an uncommon situation.

But if you do your homework (there's a ton of great reading in the rifle library, I think its been posted in this thread already. I know one of mods always seems to be ready to bash his head into the wall over the rifle overpenetration myth everytime it keeps coming up too) you'll see that an ar15 with the right ammo can be less of an overpenetration hazard than a shotgun or handgun with appropriate defensive rounds. Its interesting that you're trying to ridicule people about what you imagine is unecessary planning but don't seem to be aware of that. Perhaps their planning isn't the elaborate foolish thing you're picturing.

 

[FourTeeFive]

A tactical shotgun or carbine is NOT too long for HD. Hold your hands out in front of you for a pistol stance. Now hold out a AR carbine or an M-1 carbine, or a tactical shotgun. Not much longer, is it?

Especially for home defense I would recommend using a shooting stance that keeps your handgun MUCH closer to your body than that.

 

[Magnuumpwr]

KCshooter, I'm not that interested in defeating body armor. The 500 is my go to choice for stopping anything that I might encounter with one shot. The armor penetration question is just a "wondering" type thing.

 

[kcshooter]

Perhaps their planning isn't the elaborate foolish thing you're picturing.

Perhaps, perhaps not.
I've done my homework. Know what I didn't find? Cases of drug dealing gang members in body armor invading random houses.
I'll choose to put my worry elsewhere.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

you'll see that an ar15 with the right ammo can be less of an overpenetration hazard

But will said ammo still penetrate armor?

 

[ZeSpectre]

I never encountered a criminal wearing body armor, but have seen it recovered when search warrants were served.

+1

Also +1 on the "Failure Drill"

And for your amusement, this little linky to an amusing body armor story.

http://www.legaljuice.com/2007/10/watch_out_for_this_eighthgrade_1.html

My favorite part of the article...

Anyway, at least one eighth-grade boy knows where the body armor stops, and the body begins. We know this because the kid stopped in front of McChesney, and drilled (punched) him - real hard - right below the armor-line.

 

[d906670]

Anyone have any idea how the S&W 500 with an 8 3/8" bbl, shooting Win. supreme 400gr. PTHP's stacks up against level IIA and IIIA body armor?

The same as the 350 grain 50AE round would do, ribs through the lungs after breaking on impact.

 

[Soybomb]

But will said ammo still penetrate armor?

Yes, there's lot of excellent info on the web to read, and some of it even conveniently linked to in the rifle forum library http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208641

 

[Rocksurly]

What if the BG is using this body armor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPS2l5fQ55A

 

[mcmurry]

I saw the thing Mythbusters did. But several years back, on one of the first blooper shows, a reporter doing a story about a cop being saved by a bullet proof vest, put one on and let himself be shot with a .22 revolver. He stumbled several feet back, barely keeping on his feet, cursing severely.
The gun was about a foot away, and about mid chest. I figure it to be something like being hit by a sledge hammer.
What I don't get is kevlar toboggans. Wouldn't the impact still fracture the skull?

 

[Soybomb]

But several years back, on one of the first blooper shows, a reporter doing a story about a cop being saved by a bullet proof vest, put one on and let himself be shot with a .22 revolver. He stumbled several feet back, barely keeping on his feet, cursing severely.
The gun was about a foot away, and about mid chest. I figure it to be something like being hit by a sledge hammer.

Its entertainment, don't put too much stock in it. Maybe the guy's hamming it up for the camera, maybe its a mental thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HP62Doe3Ak

 

[conw]

Newton's second law still applies: they aren't taking any more force than your shoulder is taking.

Isn't this a gross oversimplification? The gun itself absorbs some of the force, hence why you feel more recoil with a lighter gun. And what about the gases that escape on semi-autos?

 

[FourTeeFive]

Newton's second law still applies: they aren't taking any more force than your shoulder is taking.

Isn't this a gross oversimplification? The gun itself absorbs some of the force, hence why you feel more recoil with a lighter gun. And what about the gases that escape on semi-autos?

Yes, it is a gross oversimplification. The recoil can be diffused, and the gasses, heat, light, and other forms of energy taken into consideration. Just shooting a rifle and seeing what damage occurs at the impact end of things should convince you otherwise.

 

[stampsm]

you also have to take into consideration force over time. the force of the bullet being pushed down the barrel is spread over the whole time it is traveling down it. it is slowed down on impact over a much shorter distance, sometimes only a few inches. this results in a much higher force over a smaller time period instead of a low force over a longer time period. also some stocks can greatly reduce the force felt by absorbing the blow and spreading it out into your body over a longer time period.