bad guys with body armour
- Thread starter General Geoff
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Gunnerpalace
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This is not a non issue, we have gangs already using no knock tricks so I consider the possibility of someone being armored a real threat.
Z-Michigan
Member
I do consider perps wearing armor a real world concern. I would worry as much or more about them being so high on drugs they don't notice or care that they've been shot, of course.
I personally have a .223 autoloader as my primary HD weapon. But I live way out in the country and bullets that miss aren't likely to hit another house. If I were in town I would probably use a 12ga shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot and aim for the neck area, which isn't armored except on the most extreme military armor vest systems.
I'd like to know what sources, in particular because I haven't seen #4 buck offered in a 20 gauge. Standard 20ga buckshot is #3, and #2 in magnum rounds. The smaller hull makes for fewer stacking options of the large buckshot pellets.
Having said that, I see nothing wrong with a 20ga shotgun for HD, although I don't think it has any less recoil than the light-recoil 12ga loads, and it does have fewer ammo choices.
Shotguns are good choices for effectiveness. 12ga slugs will not penetrate body armor but will cause so much trauma the guy will at least be slowed, and may be seriously injured or in rare cases even killed by the impact. However, 12ga slugs have so much penetration of standard residential walls (drywall, 2x4's, and plywood or OSB on the outside walls) that it's scary. For overpenetration in an urban area the shotgun is at least as dangerous as a .308 winchester, and more dangerous than a .223.
Boris, gun laws and politics are presumably different in Belgium. While those guns are available here (semi-auto only for the PS90), FN won't sell the original AP ammo, or any other AP ammo, due to politics. (I don't think the 5.7 AP ammo has the features that cause it to be classified as illegal armor-piercing handgun ammo in the US, FWIW.) If you're going as big as a PS90, a 16" autoloader in a popular caliber isn't bigger and offers much more power.
I personally have a .223 autoloader as my primary HD weapon. But I live way out in the country and bullets that miss aren't likely to hit another house. If I were in town I would probably use a 12ga shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot and aim for the neck area, which isn't armored except on the most extreme military armor vest systems.
I'd like to know what sources, in particular because I haven't seen #4 buck offered in a 20 gauge. Standard 20ga buckshot is #3, and #2 in magnum rounds. The smaller hull makes for fewer stacking options of the large buckshot pellets.
Having said that, I see nothing wrong with a 20ga shotgun for HD, although I don't think it has any less recoil than the light-recoil 12ga loads, and it does have fewer ammo choices.
Shotguns are good choices for effectiveness. 12ga slugs will not penetrate body armor but will cause so much trauma the guy will at least be slowed, and may be seriously injured or in rare cases even killed by the impact. However, 12ga slugs have so much penetration of standard residential walls (drywall, 2x4's, and plywood or OSB on the outside walls) that it's scary. For overpenetration in an urban area the shotgun is at least as dangerous as a .308 winchester, and more dangerous than a .223.
Boris, gun laws and politics are presumably different in Belgium. While those guns are available here (semi-auto only for the PS90), FN won't sell the original AP ammo, or any other AP ammo, due to politics. (I don't think the 5.7 AP ammo has the features that cause it to be classified as illegal armor-piercing handgun ammo in the US, FWIW.) If you're going as big as a PS90, a 16" autoloader in a popular caliber isn't bigger and offers much more power.
Who are they victimizing with the fake no-knocks? Drug dealers, looking to steal cash, drugs or both. So unless you are selling recreational pharmaceuticals from your home, or unless you keep large amounts of cash or other highly valuable things in your home and everyone else knows about it, it is most likely a non-issue. The armored up gang of home invaders is an internet gun forum fantasy. In 22 years working in the rural county with the highest crime rate in the state, I can recall ONE home invasion that wasn't someone looking to rip off another criminal for drugs or cash or someone who broke down a door to settle a grievance. That one instance was a man who ran a business and his family knew he kept a large amount of cash in his home. The suspect was a nephew but we never could break that case.
Random home invasions just don't happen with enough frequency that it should be the top threat you are preparing for. Random home invasions by armored up thugs are even rarer.
Jeff
mljdeckard
Member
I'm very much with Jeff here. I'm much more concerned with using ammo that won't OVER do it, this is MUCH more likely to be a concern than BGs with body armor.
Those of us who have worn it know, body armor SUCKS. Using it and training with it requires skill and discipline. This is the same reason criminals usually aren't very good shots. THEY DON'T HAVE SKILL AND DISCIPLINE. This is why they are criminals. Always? Maybe not. But often enough.
Find me a criminal who has the wherewithal to use body armor, and I'll show you a more likely target than my humble home. And within the ranges in my house, I am QUITE capable of hitting ABOVE the armor with a pistol or a shotgun. Out in public? That's why I keep a rifle in my vehicle.
Those of us who have worn it know, body armor SUCKS. Using it and training with it requires skill and discipline. This is the same reason criminals usually aren't very good shots. THEY DON'T HAVE SKILL AND DISCIPLINE. This is why they are criminals. Always? Maybe not. But often enough.
Find me a criminal who has the wherewithal to use body armor, and I'll show you a more likely target than my humble home. And within the ranges in my house, I am QUITE capable of hitting ABOVE the armor with a pistol or a shotgun. Out in public? That's why I keep a rifle in my vehicle.
FourTeeFive
Member
Agreed that it is a highly unlikely scenario.
That said, 12 gauge #4 aimed just below groin. Quite likely you're going to drop them and do some major femoral artery damage.
That said, 12 gauge #4 aimed just below groin. Quite likely you're going to drop them and do some major femoral artery damage.
coyotehitman
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I practice the Mozambique drill, I practice transitions from CM to groin to head. For all intents and purposes, the length and weight of a rifle or shotty make them impractical for some scenarios in the home. I am going to have a pistol in hand for most any split second HD scenario, anyway.
Spend 15 -30 minutes clearing your home with a loaded mag in a long gun, at the high ready, and see how heavy it becomes.
I have encountered a BG with armor one time in many years on the job. I train for it, I'll deal with it, I do not worry about it.
Spend 15 -30 minutes clearing your home with a loaded mag in a long gun, at the high ready, and see how heavy it becomes.
I have encountered a BG with armor one time in many years on the job. I train for it, I'll deal with it, I do not worry about it.
i personally prefer my 10ga with turkey shot.
2 balls of lead
1 ounce each
1250ft/sec
around 3300 ft/pounds of force
in a comparison a .223 maxes out at around 1300 ft/pounds
a 12ga is about 2875 ft/pounds of force
only a 15% increase in force but hey every bit counts
just as a fair comparison a 7.62x54R has about 2900 ft/pounds
i would pick the 7.62x54R if it wasn't for the fact that my 103 year old Mosin-Nagant is so big.
the 10ga would also make a really good club.
i really should be asleep,
2 balls of lead
1 ounce each
1250ft/sec
around 3300 ft/pounds of force
in a comparison a .223 maxes out at around 1300 ft/pounds
a 12ga is about 2875 ft/pounds of force
only a 15% increase in force but hey every bit counts
just as a fair comparison a 7.62x54R has about 2900 ft/pounds
i would pick the 7.62x54R if it wasn't for the fact that my 103 year old Mosin-Nagant is so big.
the 10ga would also make a really good club.
i really should be asleep,
Riss
Member
Oooooooooooh time for the Zombie drill. 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Repeat as necessary.
OP
OP
General Geoff
Member
I like the way you think, sir.
JImbothefiveth
Member
Actually, I think it was in another discussion about body armor, the subject of zombie unicorns wearing body armor came up.
razorblade31
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- Joined
- Sep 17, 2007
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- 39
Actually not so much.
Fact: Interestingly enough, in FBI Firearms Training Unit tests show that submachinegun and handgun rounds penetrated more on average than .223/5.56mm rounds in typical interior construction and tissue.
(http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm)
It makes sense, hitting the wall going 3000fps will fragment the bullets a lot more than hitting it at 1000fps.
armoredman
Member
There have been at least two reported cases of multiple armored assailants conducting home invasions in the Phoenix area in the last 3-6 months. Yes, most likely drug deals gone wrong, etc, but if PD can get the wrong addy for thier no-knock, so can they. Not to mention the buzz out of Mexico stating the drug lords have given thier blessings on conducting the same type of hits they do in Mexico every day, on Mexican targets who fled to the US.
I would love a nice bullpup rifle to use in the house, as well as a Level IIIA raid vest to throw over the PJs, but I have my Surefire and P01 instead. Hopefully, that will work.
I would like bullpup for compact maneuvering in tight quarters, but the Saiga 308 Option i am currently trying to save for is shortenough, I think. Add light/laser, shouldbe good, with TAP ammo.
sm, I was an armored trucker for 8.5 years, (the screen name ain't a fluke), and I wore my vest every day save one - felt naked all day long. I had co-workers that complained of being hot, and I would reply, "Better hot and alive than cold and dead" Vest saved more than one guy in my line of work, including one who was shot from behind with a 12 gauge, 00 buck. He was able to return fire from a prone position, no casualties either side.
Compact rifle and armor may be taken as paraniod, but so are those who have fire extinguishers in every room, escape ladders in all upper story rooms, escape plans that are practiced in case of fire, or natural disaster, (look Southeast for practical demonstrations)...wait, that ISN'T paranoia? Hmmm....
I would love a nice bullpup rifle to use in the house, as well as a Level IIIA raid vest to throw over the PJs, but I have my Surefire and P01 instead. Hopefully, that will work.
I would like bullpup for compact maneuvering in tight quarters, but the Saiga 308 Option i am currently trying to save for is shortenough, I think. Add light/laser, shouldbe good, with TAP ammo.
sm, I was an armored trucker for 8.5 years, (the screen name ain't a fluke), and I wore my vest every day save one - felt naked all day long. I had co-workers that complained of being hot, and I would reply, "Better hot and alive than cold and dead" Vest saved more than one guy in my line of work, including one who was shot from behind with a 12 gauge, 00 buck. He was able to return fire from a prone position, no casualties either side.
Compact rifle and armor may be taken as paraniod, but so are those who have fire extinguishers in every room, escape ladders in all upper story rooms, escape plans that are practiced in case of fire, or natural disaster, (look Southeast for practical demonstrations)...wait, that ISN'T paranoia? Hmmm....
Z-Michigan
Member
None that I know of, but the 7.62x54R is roughly equivalent to a .30-06 and therefore only slightly more powerful than a .308 Win. There are many 16" barreled options in .308 Win, including several AR-10 designs (DPMS, Armalite, and RRA), FN-FAL options (DS Arms), HK91 clones (PTR-91), shorty M14 derivatives (Springfield Armory SOCOM II), and the Saiga rifle in .308. Any of those would be fine for zombie unicorns wearing level IIIA vests.
Take a look at the box o'truth website. Long and short is that .223 has less penetration in drywall than many pistol rounds, but it is definitely dangerous through at least one interior wall. However, it would be an infinitely better choice than a 12ga slug or a .308 FMJ where overpenetration is a concern.
I read the information that followed this statement, but just FYI, CDNN has the Bushmaster M17S - a 30" bullpup in .223/5.56mm with a 21.5" barrel - right now (it has been discontinued). I've also shot the FN FS2000 and, IMHO, I wouldn't save my pennies for it. It also has a measly 17.4" barrel despite its bullpup design - what gives?
mgregg85
Member
+1 on the CZ-52. If you are really worried about it you could carry the CZ with surplus ammo. That should punch through most any of the level II vests, not sure about the IIIs though. I know box o'truth proved it would penetrate a current issue PASGT helmet @25 feet(but .357 mag will not).
I just keep a shotgun by the bed, buckshot or slugs at HD ranges will surely incapacitate anyone, with or without body armor.
I just keep a shotgun by the bed, buckshot or slugs at HD ranges will surely incapacitate anyone, with or without body armor.
i just happen to like the cost of 7.62x54R ammo, it is literally half or less of the cost of the equivalent powered ammo. at least until the mil surplus starts to run out. you can pick up 8k rounds for around 1300. i have seriously considered buying a chunk like that and stashing it away.
Magnuumpwr
Member
Anyone have any idea how the S&W 500 with an 8 3/8" bbl, shooting Win. supreme 400gr. PTHP's stacks up against level IIA and IIIA body armor?
kcshooter
Member
Are you people actually so worried about your house being raided by drug-dealing thug gangs wearing body armor that you find it necessary to create a plan of action?
You should move to a better 'hood then, or at least get your prescription refilled.
You should move to a better 'hood then, or at least get your prescription refilled.
To quote Ron White:
"I can see his head, shoot him in his Fing head!"
I had a FN 5.7 for HD, and, as that is temporarily unavailable, I have a Mossberg 500 12 Gauge loaded with alternating Slug and OO Buck. Shoot center mass, if that doesn't work, shoot him in the head. Groin shots are also a good idea, if you're not comfortable with your ability to hit the head.
"I can see his head, shoot him in his Fing head!"
I had a FN 5.7 for HD, and, as that is temporarily unavailable, I have a Mossberg 500 12 Gauge loaded with alternating Slug and OO Buck. Shoot center mass, if that doesn't work, shoot him in the head. Groin shots are also a good idea, if you're not comfortable with your ability to hit the head.
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