Bad news for COM target SD advocates

Status
Not open for further replies.
ACP,
Good post. If shooting point blank, I imagine one could walk the shots up to the head/neck region. If a couple body shots put them in a defensive/protective position, it might not be TOO diffiult to unload the rest into the cranium -- esp. if they are within arms reach and already wounded.

BTW, I can't believe you have more than 600 posts in less than 10 days. What was your TFL total??
Click to expand...
But consider this:

How sure am I that my CCW (semi auto) is going to fire when I pull the trigger? Almost 100%, because I carry it with one in the pipe.

How sure am I that it will fire a second time? Not so sure because jams happen, and according to Mr. Murphy, the first jam from my CCW is liable to happen when I can least afford it.

So my mentality is that I've got ONE shot to solve my "problem."

Secondly, my best time between accurate shots is 0.3" with my DAO CCW. That's 3 seconds for 10 shots, and a charging BG can cover more than 20 feet in 2 seconds. I DON'T have time to walk shots if he's close enough to be considered "arm's length" away.

(BTW, I had a bit over 5,000 posts on TFL.)
 
That's debatable....
Click to expand...

Being that since we're talking CCW situation, this theoretical shooting will not take place in a vacuum. Considering where a miss could travel, and who else it could hit, I would rather have a shot pull low and score a hit than miss anyday--that's why I've got 19 more rounds anyway.

Yes, his adrenaline might go sky high with a gutshot and he'll take a slowly debilitating wound, but a miss isn't going to do ANY damage, and presents the opportunity for catastrophic consequences.

-Teuf
 
Blackhawk -

I understand where you are coming from on the recent San Antonio "clusterperf" (' hoping that one will be most descriptive and still get by by the software).

Since it appears that no one has mentioned the following yet, I'll chime in. As explained to us at DPS CHL instructor school, taking the first shot at the head is not only increasing the odds for a miss, but can imply "malice". A potentially subsequently perceived "intent to kill", rather than simply desire to "stop or neutralize". Or so the lawyers may claim ... Yea, I know ... Better judged by 12 or carried by 6?

On the other hand, we have been encouraged to train with and teach two quick shots to the chest (then, if needed) one to the head. It is a drill I sometimes set up for some (more advanced) students with a special "Chargin Marvin" target. Unfortunately, I've seen it practiced and perfected far more frequently by serious CHL people than typical LEOs ...

I'm still hurting for the SAPD LEOs and their families.:(
 
Last edited:
IMO, shoot what you can see until you get a better target.

I practice shooting at small targets because I want to have confidence in my shot placement. As one saying puts it, "don't shoot 'em in the chest - shoot the button on his chest". But when (if) the SHTF everything will be much more dynamic. I may not be able to see the hot spot (particularly in low light). If all you can immediately see is an arm, ear, or shoulder, shoot that.

Headshots are good, if you can get 'em. Even if it's a bit off and doesn't put him down, it will still ring his bell real loud and seriously screw up his OODA loop.

However, the most likely situation would call for several body shots first.
 
Teufelhunden, that's why it's debatable! :D

IMO, you shouldn't ever take a shot when you can't afford to miss. If the backdrop consists of soft targets, I'd much rather have the BG catch the bullets than risk a miss.

But that presumes I'm able to consider the backdrop. That means I've got time to work out the old brain a little before shooting, which means the BG isn't inside of 10 yards going full tilt with murder in his eyes. Believe me, in the latter case, all I'm going to see is his head on top of a mad Incredible Hulk.

SD shootings are extremely unlikely in the first place. For a citizen to be charged by one like the one in San Antonio is another order of magnitude unlikely, IMO. The most likely SD situation we're likely to get in is a mugging, and not by a crazed killer.

But in the event that my brain in hyperdrive says "head shot needed," I want my body to say "okay, been there, done that, so tell me when."

The BIG point is, again, that there is NO preplanned SD shooting scenario that will fit all SD situations, so you should train and be prepared to use WHATEVER is appropriate.

My original point is that the perp in this tragedy needed a head shot right from the git-go. He didn't get it until the hero LEO figured that out after shooting him 4 times. My mind would have been shouting "GO DOWN, GO DOWN..." as though telekinesis would have worked instead of a head shot....
 
This might be a little OT, but doesn't it bother most of you that an officer, who uses as one of his main tools a firearm, only has a hit rate of 25%?!

That's like a carpenter only hitting the nail once out of every 4 swings. Who'd want to hire him?!

I think that there should be stricter training by PD. I also think that no police officers should be out on patrol by themselves. They should always have a partner.

More on topic, I think that you just need to hedge the bets and aim COM, if that doesn't stop the BG, then head shot if possible.
 
This might be a little OT, but doesn't it bother most of you that an officer, who uses as one of his main tools a firearm, only has a hit rate of 25%?!
Click to expand...
Doesn't bother me a bit.

What that statistic disregards are the "impossible" shots LEOs have to take. Their targets aren't paper ones immovably fixed to a target board, nor are they at known distances, nor are the LEOs themselves able to mentally rehearse the shot. They're more likely to be shooting at targets that are shooting back, running, jinking around, and making their best efforts to do them or somebody else mortal harm. And let's not forget dark, obstinate weather, and a pucker factor 2-3 stories high.

I'd be VERY surprised if many or any of us could do as well or better under the SAME conditions. We do our SD or target drills at closer ranges and orderly conditions.

I WANT LEOs to take the hard shots to keep themselves safe, even if they only amount to suppressive fire. At the same time, I insist that they be VERY aware of what else is in their line of fire.

A hit rate of 15-20% would be just lovely as long as no LEOs are getting shot and no innocent members of the public are getting shot either. Even better if the intended targets do get shot. Ammo is much cheaper than LEO funerals and all that goes with them....
 
A friend of mine practices a strange system(no idea where he got it). He calls it the three Hs. Thats hip...heart...head. To him the hip is the transmission, the heart is the engine, the head is the computer. He feels like the BG is going down...even though he has never had to prove the theory. Personally, I do the best I can with the COM practice.
Mark.
 
Yikes.

I hope he never has to use that!

I can see it now. He hits the BG in the hip. BG decides that that really hurt and surrenders. Next BG gets really good lawyer and sues good guy for intentionally crippling him for life. BG wins because good guy did indeed shoot him there on purpose.

COM or Head usually= No Lawsuit.

or to make Blackhawk Happy..

Headshot= NO Law Suit. :D

Good SHooting
RED
 
Training to shoot to the textbook 'center of mass' is a bad habit to get into because alot of the time people fail to realize that in reality the target area isn't always stationary. Your attacker(s) will be crouching and moving laterally once the balloon goes up and the guns start going off.

So if you train to aquire a sight picture at center of mass and your assailant suddenly ducks, then you've instantly lost your sight picture. This 'momentary lapse of orientation' in your OODA loop will prevent you from tracking your target and could result in you yourself getting shot.

It would be more advisable to train to shoot into the abdomen at the belly button level and then walk your rounds upward into the thoracic triangle to maximize the chance of disrupting the central nervous system sufficiently enough to stop the threat.

Head shots should always be the last resort, not top priority. The target area is small and it moves erratically. Not only that, but bullets have the tendency to glance off the skull rather than penetrate depending on the angle from which the shots were originally fired.
 
Not only that, but bullets have the tendency to glance off the skull rather than penetrate depending on the angle from which the shots were originally fired.
Click to expand...
That can be good.

"I was just trying to knock him out." :rolleyes:
 
Didn't we just all read the story of the young Marine (God Bless 'em All). Who stood his ground and took a shot to the face.

He chewed on the bullet for awhile then spat it out, and continued to munch his hamburger. Then asked the perp if he wanted another shot before he retaliated.

Then, after being shot in the 'head', he rumaged through is vehicle, produced a (say it ain't so) honest to God 1911. Took careful aim... and shoot the dirty little carjacker in the CHEST.

When the cops show up the carjacker is already room temp and the Marine (God Bless 'em All) decided to get some push ups in while he was waiting.

So where should you shoot head or chest?

I don't know.
Just make sure you aint shooting a Marine (God Bless 'em All)

:D


Regards,
HS/LD
BTW you all know New Zealand Army lads make US Marines look like nancies right?? :neener:







:)
Sheeez just kidding Gunny,
Semper Fi :D
 
gryphon

(This might be a little OT, but doesn't it bother most of you that an officer, who uses as one of his main tools a firearm, only has a hit rate of 25%?! )

This is the problem. This is NOT their main tool. Many officers never draw their gun in their entire career. Some only a few times.
Their brains are their main tools and sad to say some never use them very often either. Such is life. That is why they miss. they just don't get enough practice because they don't use them very often or the dept. won't fund enough money to buy the bullets. A shame but a fact of life (and sometimes death.)
:what:
 
Blackhawk never gives up. I will do what I have to in a firefight to make sure the BG stops. If the body shots don't stop him, then I guess I will keep shooting COM or if I have the ability and opportunity, I will take a head shot. I will just be shooting at the biggest target available and not stopping until they stop. If they take a gut shot, fall over, and the person is still moving, I will shoot them some more. I can also take cover and watch them squirm from cover. If they are still a threat and don't comply with me telling them to hold still, I might just have to shoot them again. Every situation is different. For me, I am going to shoot COM because that is where I have the greatest chance of making a rushed shot a hit instead of a miss. Every hit is better than a miss. Of course between the eyes shots are the best, but look at reality, are you going to shoot 10 shots and get all of them perfectly in that little 3" circle? Yeah? Maybe you should try doing it timed then. Next maybe try putting a friend 50 yards to the side and while you draw and shoot your target, have them shoot at you with a paint ball gun. Try to hit that target while ducking for cover. I chose to be lazy and practice for COM while being timed.
 
Blackhawk never gives up.
Click to expand...
What does "give up" mean, anyway?
If they take a gut shot, fall over, and the person is still moving, I will shoot them some more. I can also take cover and watch them squirm from cover. If they are still a threat and don't comply with me telling them to hold still, I might just have to shoot them again.
Click to expand...
Shooting them again is not a good idea, Red. Maybe if they're moving in an agressive manner, such as trying to get a bead on you with their gun, it could pass a murder inquiry, but most likely if you shoot them and they go down, your SD shooting justification is gone. You HAVE stopped the attack, and that's your only legitimate purpose for shooting.
 
Getting back to meow original premise - The officers failed to maintain sufficient situational awareness and weapon retention. They were NOT ambushed, as the article claims. The guy disarmed one of 'em, shot the place up, then disarmed another one.

Possibly the officers in question had been training to disarm suspects, etc., and not to shoot 'em, and closed and tried to wrassle the SOB. Real life follows training, folks.

Lessons learned: Use enough gun, keep 'hold of your gun, don't get close enough to the bad guy for him to coldcock you.
 
don't get close enough to the bad guy for him to coldcock you.
Click to expand...
IMO, that's the PRIMARY failure of the first two LEOs in this incident. When you're behind somebody, you can't see what they're about to do in time to react. I give the untrusted more wake space than in front or the side.

However, the original premise is that depending on ANY handgun to stop an attacker with COM shots isn't a good plan....
 
Maybe if they're moving in an agressive manner, such as trying to get a bead on you with their gun, it could pass a murder inquiry, but most likely if you shoot them and they go down, your SD shooting justification is gone.
Click to expand...
You misunderstood me to some extent. What I meant is if they go down, that doesn't necessarily mean they stopped. I shoot someone in the gut, I would think they would most likely fall down for a brief period of time. That doesn't mean they have stopped their threatening actions. So if I do shoot someone, and they don't stop their actions, I am going to shoot them some more. That is what I meant. Hence the point that I could take cover as an alternative to running up to see how they are doing. Just because they are squirming around because they are shot doesn't mean they are done. And that is why you are such a big fan of head shots. You want to stop them immediately and for good right? That way there is no squirming, just calm.

However, the original premise is that depending on ANY handgun to stop an attacker with COM shots isn't a good plan....
Click to expand...
Do you have statistics to support this arguement? What are the rates of COM hits taking a subject down immediately? What are the rates of head shots taking down subject immediately? Then we would have to take into consideration the number of hits to COM when the shooter meant to shoot for COM vs. the number of hits to the head when the shooter meant to shoot for the head. Otherwise your entire argument is based upon circumstance and occassional situations that support your argument vs. occasional situations that are opposite of your thesis.

I think COM shots are a good idea because hits count, misses don't. COM is larger than the head. If you COM shots fail, then target the head or just keep shooting COM. Whatever is easier and more feasible in your situation. Which Blackhawk agreed with, every situation is different. Do what you think you can do in the situation is really the point here. If you train enough to take head shots, great. If you don't, do what you can to make hits and not throw rounds into dangerous areas behind the target.
 
Red, the first sentence of what you quoted shows that we agree about the "after" shots. I put that part in because your post was not clear in explaining those caveats, and I don't want you or anybody else on record in a public forum as advocating whacking the wounded, nor do I want anybody reading your post and getting the idea that such is in any way condoned by you or anybody else on THR.

The original premise was my opinion. I don't need statistics to back up my opinion, and I doubt that M&S or any of the other data collecting wonks are much interested in studying head shots because they're rare. Many people get shot in the face messing up their jaws, teeth, etc., but surviving. Those are head shots because that's where the face is. Likewise many people survive COM shots.

Statistics aren't necessary to support my premise. Physiology unarguably supports the premise that an anterior centerline bullet to the neck up to and including the nose will be a stopper. Likewise through an eye socket. Between the eyes has an extremely high probability of being a stopper as does in the forehead or temple. Additionally, many areas suffering impacts to the bones of the head will render most people unconscious, and that's as good of a stopper as a fatal wound.

The anterior head has a relatively larger concentration of "stopper spots" than COM, and most of them will end an attack. On the contrary, there are far fewer COM hits that will instantly drop an attacker stoked with adrenaline.

Don't take a shot you can't make, and finally as somebody's tag line says "my opinion is just as irrelevant as yours," so do what you want and practice what you want.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
"a double standard" ???
Replies
17
Views
730
EJ
E
B
  • Locked
Rookie cop turns pro the hard way (RE: San Antonio 4 cops v 1 felon)
Replies
2
Views
816
Mr. Fixit
M
W
  • Locked
(TX) Shotgun blast stops robber's truck 10-18-03
Replies
4
Views
637
Double Naught Spy
Double Naught Spy
E
  • Locked
Shootout leaves man dead, 4 San Antonio officers injured
Replies
5
Views
1K
VaughnT
V
Y
  • Locked
Woman stabs would be robber with scissors
Replies
8
Views
1K
redneck
redneck
Back
Top