After years of loading mainly for hunting, I am getting into much lighter loads for use in target shooting (pistol team). The lighter loads fill only a fraction of the case and I am wondering if I would benefit using ballistic filler to take up the volume. I have seen people use cotton, cornmeal, and a newer material called Puflon. What has been the general experience? Advantages and problems.
Ballistic filler
- Thread starter Oldnamvet
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griz
Member
I played around with a light CAS load with instant grits as a filler. While it did eliminate position sensitivity, it wasn't worth it to me. Very messy to load, takes extra time, and smells funny when fired. (likely only a problem with cereal type fillers)
If you do try it, start carefully. The pressures will go up quite a bit since the empty space is gone. I'll dig up the chrono readings if you are interested in a comparison.
If you do try it, start carefully. The pressures will go up quite a bit since the empty space is gone. I'll dig up the chrono readings if you are interested in a comparison.
griz
Member
I just saw this was your first post. It is my pleasure to welcome you to THR. 
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Welcome from me too!
Filler has been debated quite a bit and for some is a contentious issue. I do have strong reservations over its use in reduced rifle loads, as there seem to have been reports of ''chamber ringing'' when used - dacron usually IIRC.
For reduced pistol rounds I'd say - forget it!!! Really no discernible benefit IMO. I load light for PPC in my 38 spl's ... and there is a good bit of space in the case. However - the rounds shoot well consistently for me.
I think this way - I load and make ready and holster. Every time I draw the powder will be probably other than tight up to the primer - first round for sure. After that who knows - maybe with recoil, mild tho it is the powder settles back a bit - end result tho is all 6 seem identical in feel and accuracy.
After a speedload probably much same situation. I just shot several rounds of PPC 600 this evening and at 25 yards - where inconsistencies in ammo might really show - no problems - at least none that were not down to my ineptitude!!
Anyways - my vote would be - just carry on and don't bother with an extra stage in loading. Main concern is avoiding double charges but - I use a turret and so only one powder drop can happen.
Filler has been debated quite a bit and for some is a contentious issue. I do have strong reservations over its use in reduced rifle loads, as there seem to have been reports of ''chamber ringing'' when used - dacron usually IIRC.
For reduced pistol rounds I'd say - forget it!!! Really no discernible benefit IMO. I load light for PPC in my 38 spl's ... and there is a good bit of space in the case. However - the rounds shoot well consistently for me.
I think this way - I load and make ready and holster. Every time I draw the powder will be probably other than tight up to the primer - first round for sure. After that who knows - maybe with recoil, mild tho it is the powder settles back a bit - end result tho is all 6 seem identical in feel and accuracy.
After a speedload probably much same situation. I just shot several rounds of PPC 600 this evening and at 25 yards - where inconsistencies in ammo might really show - no problems - at least none that were not down to my ineptitude!!
Anyways - my vote would be - just carry on and don't bother with an extra stage in loading. Main concern is avoiding double charges but - I use a turret and so only one powder drop can happen.
ocabj
Member
I started loading Laser-Cast 170gr .310 bullets for my Finnish M39 and Swiss K31 using 13.0gr of 2400. 13.0gr of 2400 is miniscule compared to the case size. I read about how people recommend some sort of filler, ie: dacron. Well, the Laser-Cast article I read where I got this load said to forget using filler.
Here's a ten shot string I shot in my 7.62x54R Finn M39 using the above load without filler:
[values in FPS]
1335
1276
1303
1309
1311
1324
1302
1325
1311
1306
10 shot average: 1310.2
The extreme spread is a respectable 59 and if you drop the high and low the 8-shot average is 1311.375 with an extreme spread of 22.
So is filler necessary? Based on the above example using only 13.0gr of a magnum pistol powder in a long action cartridge, I don't think filler is necessary.
Here's a ten shot string I shot in my 7.62x54R Finn M39 using the above load without filler:
[values in FPS]
1335
1276
1303
1309
1311
1324
1302
1325
1311
1306
10 shot average: 1310.2
The extreme spread is a respectable 59 and if you drop the high and low the 8-shot average is 1311.375 with an extreme spread of 22.
So is filler necessary? Based on the above example using only 13.0gr of a magnum pistol powder in a long action cartridge, I don't think filler is necessary.
The Bushmaster
Member
Good job Ocabj.
cracked butt
Member
The Puff-lon stuff looks promising, but is way to expensive for me to even bother experimenting with.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've used 20 grains of 2400 for many years in the '06, with a 169-grain lead gas check. No filler. They always worked just fine.
Art
Art
I did quite a bit of experimenting with fiber filler loads some time back.
In light .38 Special loads (or target wadcutter loads in longer .357 cases), with fast-burning powders like Bullseye, Unique, Green Dot, and HP38, it makes no discernable difference with accuracy, point of impact, velcoity, or consistency. About pressure I can't say, but there are no signs, as there shouldn't be for loads this light. My guess is these powders ignite easily and burn completely no matter where they are in the case
In mid-power .357 loads, about 1100-1200 f/s with 158gr Cast or Swaged Lead SWC and H110 powder, accuracy stayed about the same, but velocity went up just a bit and consistency (mean deviation) improved. But the point wasn't to increase velocity, and when the charge was dropped the accuracy and consistency decreased too. All of which was pretty minor anyhow, so it simply wasn't worth the bother. (Again, in loads like this that are way under the pressure maxes, there were no signs of increased pressure.)
In .44 Mag, however, using mid-power loads, 240 gr. Cast or Lead SWC bullets, and H110 powder, a little pinch of Dacron fiberfill made a noticable (but not drastic) difference in velocity and mean deviation. But accuracy was about the same, and again velocity wasn't the goal, so eventually I abandoned fiberfill for .44s as simply not worth the bother.
In light .38 Special loads (or target wadcutter loads in longer .357 cases), with fast-burning powders like Bullseye, Unique, Green Dot, and HP38, it makes no discernable difference with accuracy, point of impact, velcoity, or consistency. About pressure I can't say, but there are no signs, as there shouldn't be for loads this light. My guess is these powders ignite easily and burn completely no matter where they are in the case
In mid-power .357 loads, about 1100-1200 f/s with 158gr Cast or Swaged Lead SWC and H110 powder, accuracy stayed about the same, but velocity went up just a bit and consistency (mean deviation) improved. But the point wasn't to increase velocity, and when the charge was dropped the accuracy and consistency decreased too. All of which was pretty minor anyhow, so it simply wasn't worth the bother. (Again, in loads like this that are way under the pressure maxes, there were no signs of increased pressure.)
In .44 Mag, however, using mid-power loads, 240 gr. Cast or Lead SWC bullets, and H110 powder, a little pinch of Dacron fiberfill made a noticable (but not drastic) difference in velocity and mean deviation. But accuracy was about the same, and again velocity wasn't the goal, so eventually I abandoned fiberfill for .44s as simply not worth the bother.
Thanks
Thanks to everyone for their input. I have decided to go without any ballistic filler unless I really see a need for it. I attended a cowboy shoot as a spectator and saw one person using cotton balls in his 45-70 as filler. Since he was using smokeless rather than black powder, he had a lot of extra space. So rather than white smoke, he had a lot of cotton fluff floating around after each shot. Looked like an old fashioned pillow fight had taken place.
Thanks to everyone for their input. I have decided to go without any ballistic filler unless I really see a need for it. I attended a cowboy shoot as a spectator and saw one person using cotton balls in his 45-70 as filler. Since he was using smokeless rather than black powder, he had a lot of extra space. So rather than white smoke, he had a lot of cotton fluff floating around after each shot. Looked like an old fashioned pillow fight had taken place.db_tanker
Member
I don't remember seeing this brought up, so I will mention it.
Straight-wall or straight-taper rifle cases can really benefit from fillers...bottleneck cases and fillers are a no-no, as I have been told and seen.
Case fillers such as Cream of Wheat or Grex I have played with in my 45-70 and loads of Unique and 2400 and it made a big diffrence with my loads...just remember that you don't want a wad of dacron in there and then compress it down. That has a bigger chance of ringing your chamber than the grex or CoW. As far as pistol cases go, there are enough varieties of powder out there to get what you need...especially ones that aren't position sensitive.
MTCW
Straight-wall or straight-taper rifle cases can really benefit from fillers...bottleneck cases and fillers are a no-no, as I have been told and seen.
Case fillers such as Cream of Wheat or Grex I have played with in my 45-70 and loads of Unique and 2400 and it made a big diffrence with my loads...just remember that you don't want a wad of dacron in there and then compress it down. That has a bigger chance of ringing your chamber than the grex or CoW. As far as pistol cases go, there are enough varieties of powder out there to get what you need...especially ones that aren't position sensitive.
MTCW
Third_Rail
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I think another company just came out with bulk smokeless, after years of noone producing it. I'll look around, though.
Jim Watson
Member
People keep on trying stuff. There are some CAS gamers using styrofoam caulk backer rods as fillers.
Bulk powder? Not really. IMR (now distributed by Hodgdon) is making Trail Boss which is very low density so any standard load takes up at least half the case volume of a revolver cartridge. But that is still only four or five grains, it is very fast burning.
Bulk powder? Not really. IMR (now distributed by Hodgdon) is making Trail Boss which is very low density so any standard load takes up at least half the case volume of a revolver cartridge. But that is still only four or five grains, it is very fast burning.
Third_Rail
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That's the stuff I was thinking about. I'd still like to see bulk smokeless come back, such useful stuff.
LAH
Member
With smokeless powders I wouldn't consider a filler. Saw a post by John Taffin and he feels the same way. In blackpowder cartridge loads I like the veggie wads but not for smokeless.
caz223
Member
I thought about it for a while, but it doesn't address the real issue.
Double charges.
I'm gonna buy trail boss for my smokey plinkers, as soon as I see some load data in circulation.
Double charges.
I'm gonna buy trail boss for my smokey plinkers, as soon as I see some load data in circulation.
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