Ballistic gelatin test results : 38 Special Remington 158gr SJHP (2" barrel) bare gel

[Brass Fetcher]

Special thanks to Hoptob for their sponsorship of this test.

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Cartridge : .38 Special Remington 158gr SJHP handload

Firearm : .38 Special Smith & Wesson 642 with 2" barrel length

Block calibration : 8.4cm @ 589 ft/sec and 36.1 degrees Fahrenheit

Five shots fired from a distance of 10 feet into a bare 10% gelatin block.

Shot 1 - Impacted at 936 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.7" and exited the side of the block. Bullet was recovered after penetrating ~ 0.5" of sand placed behind the gelatin block. Recovered weight was 156.9gr, average recovered length was 0.591" and average diameter was 0.476".

Shot 2 - Impacted at 893 ft/sec, penetrated to 14.8" and exited the side of the block. Bullet was recovered after penetrating ~ 0.5" of sand placed behind the gelatin block. Recovered weight was 157.9gr, average recovered length was 0.626" and average diameter was 0.441".

Shot 3 - Impacted at 879 ft/sec, penetrated to 13.9". Recovered weight was 156.9gr, average recovered length was 0.558" and average diameter was 0.552".

Shot 4 - Impacted at 864 ft/sec, penetrated to 15.1" and exited the side of the block. Bullet was recovered after penetrating ~ 0.5" of sand placed behind the gelatin block. Recovered weight was 157.4gr, average recovered length was 0.590" and average diameter was 0.447".

Shot 5 - Impacted at 895 ft/sec, penetrated to 13.9". Recovered weight was 157.3gr, average recovered length was 0.570" and average diameter was 0.553".

 

[Jim March]

Damned interesting.

BUT, first off these are pretty hot - 900ish fps from a 2" barrel with a 158 jacketed slug is at least into +P territory and is likely pushing the ragged edge.

The load itself is almost expanding well. And the "off center" expansion on most suggests they're tumbling in the target, which can be a good thing.

Still, this load isn't as good as a Speer 135+P from a snub. Another couple inches of barrel and the expansion might be more reliable...

 

[Stainz]

Those velocities, here and the Remington R38S12s into denim covered gel, seem high. I have only chrono-ed the +P 158gr LHPSWCs from Remi at 840 fps from my 642 - maybe a few fps more from my 2" 10 - certainly not 900+ fps. The GA Arms similar +P loads were almost a copy of the Remis, save their harder lead. Far less dear - and ballistically similar adds up to great practice ammo here. Still, I was amazed, knowing the results others have had in bare gel, that they didn't expand after the gel. I just have to hope, like the test here proved, that any evil-doers I must blast with same are naked! Thanks for your work - and report.

Stainz

 

[hoptob]

John, thank you so much for running these tests. Very nicely and professionally done. I appreciate it.

Jim and Stainz, thank you for your comments. The load John tested was 6.3 gr. SR4756 under 158 gr. Remington SJHP; 38 spl case; Wolf KVB-9 primer; OAL 1.425". I have a thread running on S&W forum about this and similar loads. Here is a link if you are interested.

Agree with you that while performance of Rem 158 gr. SJHP at 900 fps is quite interesting; this bullet is no match for Speer 135 gr. or Rem 158 gr. LHP from FBI load. Any thoughts about performance of Speer 158 gr. Gold Dot at this velocity?

Mike

 

[RyanM]

158 gr Gold Dots are a hunting bullet, seems like. They tend to penetrate something like 15-16", even at fullhouse .357 mag velocities, through a long barrel. Which, actually, is the amount of penetration I like for self defense ammo. Given their performance at ~1050 FPS, they may be worth a try.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/357mag158grSpeerGoldDot.html

 

[Jim March]

The Gold Dot 158 is meant for "low 357 velocities". Speer loads it around 1,250 from a 4" barrel.

If we look at the test Ryan just linked to, the rounds are doing 1,050ish (which you are NOT going to get in 38 unless the barrel is 8"+) and they're barely expanding (to about .5"). At real 357 speeds these go wider than that. So at 900fps, I'd say they're not going to expand.

EXCEPT...

I keep wondering, what happens if you take a slug that's meant to expand at higher velocities than you're going to shoot it at, and you modify it? As in, put the bullet (prior to getting loaded) in a drill press and drill a fairly fine hole deep but not through the thing?

Take the Speer 158 as an example: the "hollow" is barely a dimple but it does come to a central point that should guide, say, a 3/32nd drill bit straight down through it's core maybe 3/4ths of the way. Mark the drill bit length you're going in with some tape, and you can get repeatable depths.

What would that do to expansion?

Remember, a Gold Dot's "jacket" (really a thick plating) extends all the way across the base. There's no exposed lead at the rear, so it *should* hold together (mostly?) despite the mod. For this reason, the Gold Dot series should be a good platform to screw around with this concept...?

Ideally, the GD158 can be made to expand down around 850-900fps. That's really all Speer is doing: altering the nose shape and hollowpoint cavity based on the expected speed.

With trial and error and published bits and depths, can we play too?

 

[71Commander]

After boring out the center, I wonder what the final weight would be and if there would be any advantage over the 135's.

 

[hoptob]

...can we play too?

Of course we can, Jim! I like your idea to drill bigger hole in Speer 158 gr. slug, but have one concern about it. If we did that we would end up with... Speer 135 gr. Or something very similar to it.

Seriously, I agree with you - bigger hole (and possibly softer lead) is the ticket. But if you wanted to try it, may I suggest starting with a heavier bullet?

With regard to velocity. One can push 158 gr. slug to almost 1100 fps out of x42. With lead bullet it's called THE LOAD and there were very detailed discussions about it on S&W forum. As in 37 pages worth of detailed discussions... Link. I've done same with jacketed bullet (link); gun seems to be holding fine, even though one can hardly expect this load to stay within SAAMI limit. The problem is that it's getting more difficult to control lightweight snubby while shooting what essentially is a 38-44 load.

By trial and error I figured that my personal limit of "controlability" with 158 gr. slug in x42 is around 940 fps. So the point of this exercise is to find a reliable performer at 900-920 fps. It has got to be possible at least with soft LSWCHP - Rem FBI load works great at 800 fps. But I don't think Remington sells their 158 gr. LHP or at least I have not seen it. Speer 135 gr. is another obvious choice but rule of this game is "158 grainer".



Mike

 

[JERRY]

ive gotten results like you have pictured with slugs number 3 and 5 from my snubbies using the Re. 158gr. LHP.

i dont know the velocities, but i figure it being all lead and not jacketed like your ammo had a lot to do with the good expansion, coupled along with i was shooting water jugs no gelotin.

 

[Jim March]

If the drill is THIN but deep, total weight loss on the bullet should be very low...at a guess, 10gr max.

 

[hoptob]

Good point, Jim. To be honest I don't really understand how depth and diameter of the hole relates to expansion. But I am happy to take your word for it.

Another way to approach this would be to duplicate Remington LHP. John tested it at 940 fps and says that it performed well but almost collapsed in gelatin. Do you have any thoughts about it?

Mike

 

[Jim March]

Another way to approach this would be to duplicate Remington LHP. John tested it at 940 fps and says that it performed well but almost collapsed in gelatin. Do you have any thoughts about it?

Well a plain lead hollowpoint will move faster than jacketed for the same pressure as lead is slicker than copper. And the lack of jacket will let it expand faster. Most decent lead hollowpoints of 158gr will expand at 900fps very reliably, so yeah, this is the classic answer for 38 snubs.

Drive one with the same powder charge used for these jacketed Remmies and you should get around 50fps more speed from the same snub gun.

 

[hoptob]

Thank you, Jim. What brand would you recommend? Speer, Hornady, something else? (I don't cast). The reason I am asking is that manufacturer product pages don't always say how soft their lead alloy is. Also, would you use gas checked or plain bullet?

Mike

 

[ARTiger]

I wonder if plated bullets would be a velocity compromise between lead and semi-jackets? Something like this from Berry's . . . http://www.berrysmfg.com/23.php

 

[Jim March]

hoptob, I wouldn't do handloads for this application, not when both the Remmington and Buffalo Bore variants (the latter both standard and +P) are so well developed.

That said, if you ARE going to handload, if you can hit 900fps I don't think the bullet supplier will matter as much. At 850fps as both the Remmie and Winnie 158+Ps pull, it seems to matter - the Remmie is softer and works in snubs. But once you hit a 4" barrel and 900+ the Winnie works well.

 

[hoptob]

Good point as always, Jim. My predicament is that I can't seem to find Rem or Win LSWCHP for sale anywhere... They aren't even listed on Midways Graf's or even Remington site.

ARTiger, that's a really interesting idea. I think plated bullets are made of pure lead (are they?). If they are they should expand great. There may be a problem with tumbling - these are high pressure loads. Worth trying anyway.

Thanks guys!

Mike

 

[Rampant_Colt]

Very cool - thanks for posting this!


[I don't want to thread-jack, but i'd kinda like to see more tests with 2" snubnose .44 Special revolvers and current defensive cartridges like DPX and Corbon 165gr JHP

I would also like to submit some .44 Special handloads for testing using Remington's excellent 210gr SJHP, in the 800-900 FPS range]