Basis for outrage (should have been "Basis for the Argument")

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I assumed that each was true, and examined the potential for rational discourse - a proxy for the persuasive power - of each of them.

Ah, yes: so you refuse to accept that your first statement is truly a given, because you reject it as being unacceptable per your beliefs - to you, it doesn't hold "sufficient potential for rational discourse"... yet you require me to accept your second statement as true - as holding more inherant "potential for rational discourse?"

There's the rub, indeed.

"Begging the question," as defined:

In logic, begging the question has traditionally described a type of logical fallacy (also called petitio principii) in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. Begging the question is related to the fallacy known as circular argument, circulus in probando, vicious circle or circular reasoning.

Either proposition only holds potential for rational discourse once one accepts the underlying axiom. Otherwise, we will both simply reply to one another, "your proposition bears no potential for rational discourse - therefore, it is invalid."

That's what we've been doing for about 150 posts now.

Of course, I don't care what you believe - if you wish to assume an axiom that you believe is a rational foundation for argument, by all means, be my guest... but don't expect to convince many Americans with it.

Unfortunately, all the while, you refuse me the same privelage.

That is hypocracy and intolerance of the worst kind, and quite suprising, indeed.
 
Either proposition only holds potential for rational discourse once one accepts the underlying axiom.

OK, let's assume for the case of argument that some rights pre-exist their instantiation in the Constitution.

Now given that principle, suppose someone asserts that even though such a rights exist, the RKBA is not one of them. How will you convince them that the RKBA is such a right?

I take it as established that if one accepts that rights are enumerated by the Constitution, we can have a rational discourse - given the (mostly) rational discourse in the Heller briefs. Do we agree on that?

Mike
 
A man once posited, “War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means.”

Of course, the Founding Fathers were well acquainted with the overwhelmingly gruesome and personal violence of war. The Second Amendment asserts that the violence and the consumption of war is inescapable, it is literally inside all of us. This carefully crafted statement is also a direct, full, and unequivocal acknowledgement of the power of arms to defend and serve oppressed people.
 
RPCVYemen -

OK, let's assume for the case of argument that some rights pre-exist their instantiation in the Constitution.

Now given that principle, suppose someone asserts that even though such a rights exist, the RKBA is not one of them. How will you convince them that the RKBA is such a right?

Post 15 of this thread:

Here is the best argument I can come up with for RKBA... It doesn't seek to equate RKBA with any other civil right or preexistant basis for outrage, such as race, religion, freedom of press, etc., but attempts to build a position from presuppositions that any reasonable person can agree with (of course, an irrational person cannot be reasoned with or convinced of anything, which is the weakness of such an argument... in which case, as the adage states, "Do not engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person, for they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience").

Here is my argument:

1) Self-defense is a bodily function that, like eating, breathing, or even reproducing, cannot be safely or effectively delegated to another. Every living thing knows self-defense - even single-celled organisms have cell membranes. Self-defense is inseparable from self-preservation, and in that sense, is no different from finding shelter from the sun or water to drink.

2) Just as humans have an undeniable, basic right to seek shelter, nourishment, and a mate with whom to reproduce, so too do they have an undeniable, basic right to defend themselves against the threat of violence. To continue to exist is the most fundamental of all human rights, civil or otherwise.

3) It is not possible to separate the right to self defense from the tools necessary to effect said defense. Humans use tools to solve problems of all sorts - it is one factor that separates us from lower species (though there are many others). When other humans attack or threaten us, and we have the already-established right to defend our lives (self-preservation), to deny us the effective and efficient tools with which to do so is to effectively deny us the right to defend ourselves. To say a human has a right to eat but may not use tools to cultivate a field, slay an animal or build a fire is to mandate starvation. To deny the use of tools for defense is synonymous with mandating submission, even to death.

4) Mandating submission to death is a violation of the most basic human right - the right to continue to exist.

5) Therefore, any measure or philosophy that would seek to strip a human being of modern, effective and efficient tools for self-defense - i.e. firearms - is to oppress a human's right to exist at all, which is, at a fundamental level, the most basic of all wrongs. Such a wrong requires an appropriate response by the oppressed party.

6) A feeling of outrage is the most modest response acceptable to such a measure or philosophy. If the measure were actually implemented, appropriate ACTIONS, beyond mere feelings, would become necessary. To fail to do so would be to surrender the means by which a human may continue to exist.

Essentially, I believe that the right to survive, to continue to exist, is inseparable from the tools necessary to ensure such survival. The anti-gun mindset that would deprive us of these toos would, by definition, require us to surrender our lives and risk death. This is unacceptable.

ETA Also, may I note that anyone who denies presuppositions 1 or 2 is your enemy outright, believing humans are neither inherantly free, nor should they be. The rest of the argument will not follow, since they believe humans should be controlled and see no use for self defense by mere subjects; however, this is irrelevant, as they have established themselves and their universal beliefs as being fundamentally backward and evil.

You don't start with RKBA being a Natural Right - you start with the acceptance of Natural Rights and work your way there. For most Americans, that acceptance is a virtual given. You appear to be the exception... perhaps the only such exception I have ever engaged in discussion personally.

The details of the argument itself can probably benefit from some fine-tuneing, but I believe they are a logical progression from the assumption that Natural Rights - such as the right to existence, self-preservation and self-defense, by extension - do exist. However, that assumption has to either be accepted, or rejected outright, just like your assumption that existence of a right in the Constitution is the first step towards justifying RKBA.

If you don't accept the premise, as I say in my original post, the argument can't go any further.
 
Post 15 of this thread:

OK. So how do we determine what is and what is not a natural right?

Your post is a series of assertions - for example that self-defense is a bodily function. But I still am not clear as to how you are determining what is and what is not a natural right.

Mike
 
And the first two points are my presuppositions about what is a natural right - in this case, self-preservation, and self-defense, by extension. Yes, you heard correctly - it is presupposed what is and what isn't a natural right. You may find this distasteful, but it's both honest and terribly convenient, as I'd guess anywhere from 70-90% of the US population will agree with those points outright... maybe more. This makes it quite effective for the OP's purpose - perhaps 2.3-9 times more effective than your argument, if my stab at statistics is accurate.

Those who disagree with them - well, the discussion is over. If it were to continue, it would devolve into the discussion we are now having, which is totally unproductive, as we simply circle one another's arguments, refusing to accept each others' basic precepts as valid. At that point, your argument should probably take over - and you would be much better suited to delivering it, since I still don't understand how it doesn't beg the question.

Also, I do not seek to identify all natural rights and exclude all others, since this argument isn't intended to do that. I just posit this particular argument's relevant presuppositions at the beginning, just as every good argument rightly begins with its respective assumptions.
 
The question was about natural rights. Why did you feel compelled to change it to human rights?

Are you perhaps a little uncomfortable with where your justification of natural rights leads you?

Why did you change the question?

Because only human beings have rights.

Its totally unserious to even bring up the "rights" of the smallpox virus at all.

Additionally, I have never said anything about "natural" rights. I have spoken only of the fundamental, inalienable human rights granted by God (even, as I said, to those who don't believe in him), and not to be revoked by any lesser authority.
 
Just missed that post. It is quite clear that either the claim "Natural rights exist irrespective of the US Constitution" and "Rights exists if they are enumerated in the US Constitution" are equivalently sound.

You are wrong. IF rights exist only because they are listed in a government document then in any place where the documents differ those rights cease to exist.

If that were true then Jews in Hitler's Germany did not have the right to life and that Hitler and his people did no wrong in perpetrating the Holocaust on them. And, if that were the case, Germany is entitled to get back the territory it held before the Normandy invasion AND receive reparations for all the damage done in WWII.

If that were true it would mean that in any place where a ruler had the power to declare slavery legal it would be perfectly fine for the people to that country to begin keeping slaves.

If that were true then no actual rights exist at all in any form in any place and have never existed at any time and lack of oppression merely means that a given government at a given moment decided to grant privileges to its citizens as a whim of politics and policy.

If that were true then a politically powerful group could amend the Constitution to say that "People named Mike can legally be killed on the second Tuesday of every month and must never install locks on their doors and you would be required by your philosophy to willingly submit to your own execution because you had no basis for objecting or calling the policy wrong after it was written into law because your right to life vanished at that moment.
 
What would you call the act of self-defense?

I would call it something I very much want to do - and because of our Constitution, I have the right to bear arms to defend myself.

Let's try to get at the issue this way - by your rubric of natural rights, can I assert that I have a natural right to steal by violence or trickery from anyone who is smaller or weaker or slower than I am?

As evidence of the pre-existing natural right, I look at the natural world, where any animal that can will take whatever it wants from any other animal that is smaller or weaker or slower.

  1. Stealing is a bodily function like eating or sleeping. Stealing food or water is as much a basic human right as finding food or water.
  2. Just as humans have an undeniable, basic right to seek shelter, nourishment, and a mate with whom to reproduce, they have a right to steal shelter, nourishment, and a mate with whom to reproduce from other human beings.
  3. It is not possible to separate the right to steal from the tools necessary to effect said theft.
  4. You see where this is going ...

I think that we would both agree that there is no natural right to steal from other human beings. Why not?

Evil
 
Additionally, I have never said anything about "natural" rights. I have spoken only of the fundamental, inalienable human rights granted by God (even, as I said, to those who don't believe in him), and not to be revoked by any lesser authority.

Sorry, I thought you were speaking in favor of elChupacabra! assertion of the existence of natural rights.

You prefer to speak of divine rights - which is fine. I think of the 18th century theories of natural rights as a disguised theory of divine rights.

But surely you understand how weak an argument that is. If you say, "I have the right to keep and bear arms because G-d gave me the right to keep and bear arms!" no further discussion is possible. If someone does not believe that G-d gave you the right to keep and bear arms, all you can do is keep repeating it like a manic parrot.

I also find that your claim that those rights are inalienable is contradicted by your own following post. The rights of Jews and slaves' rights were certainly not inalienable! They were stripped of their rights - by a far lesser authority.

In fact, I doubt that any of the Founding Fathers thought any of the rights they described were "inalienable human rights". I think that you might persuade me that a very few of them thought these were "inalienable male rights" and few more "inalienable white male rights" - most would probably have restricted many of the rights to "inalienable white male property owner's rights". But that's a side discussion. :)

Mike
 
Evil -

I would call it something I very much want to do - and because of our Constitution, I have the right to bear arms to defend myself.

Let's try to get at the issue this way - by your rubric of natural rights, can I assert that I have a natural right to steal by violence or trickery from anyone who is smaller or weaker or slower than I am?

As evidence of the pre-existing natural right, I look at the natural world, where any animal that can will take whatever it wants from any other animal that is smaller or weaker or slower.

But I do not recognize, as a presupposition, the right to steal from another, who presumably has the same Naturan Right to self-defense that my argument presupposes. Accordingly, I do not attempt to steal from anyone.

You're right - there is no natural right to steal from other human beings... appropriately, that is not a presupposition of my argument.

Again, I see that you find that distasteful - you absolutely hate my presupposition, so you attempt to make it appear absurd through Straw Man attacks... but you cannot disprove it any more than I can disprove your presuppositions.

Quid pro quo.
 
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Please be clear, I do not defend the entire spectrum of "Natural Rights" RPCVYemen would seek here to attack, including some imagined or otherwise constructed, like the supposed "right" to steal.

I only defend the rights I have enumerated specifally here, in my argument. I only argue from my presuppositions.

Your attack on any other rights not specifically enumerated here - like the absurd notion of a "right" to steal - constitutes a shameless Straw Man attack.

At this point, you are trying to attack the concept of Natural Rights without addressing the actual right I'm presupposing.

And here:

If someone does not believe that G-d gave you the right to keep and bear arms, all you can do is keep repeating it like a manic parrot.

Well, one could say "it appears we disagree on the fundamental nature of humanity." and end the conversation with grace.

I've actually been saying that for the last several dozen posts, but you keep repeating like a "manic parrot," "But that's absurd! Natural Rights CAN'T exist!"

I presuppose they do. You presuppose they don't. Except you seem intent on informing us of the absurdity in defending them - but we believe in their truth, nonetheless, just as you believe in your truth without any regard to our objections.
 
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The rights of Jews and slaves' rights were certainly not inalienable! They were stripped of their rights - by a far lesser authority.

You would JUSTIFY the Nazi's actions!?!

In the words of Scalia himself, whom you seem eager to invoke,

"Grotesque."
 
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Actually, I haven't seen any you refuting anything - mostly you've claimed that we were off topic, and that eChubacabra's view is more popular.

Ok, so I wasn't successful. But I TRIED refuting your view here
I'm sure you will agree that we have rights, natural or not. Well, if our rights are not natural rights that we are born with, then what are they and where do they come from? The government? The Constitution? Either way, that means that if the government were to take away our rights, or if the constitution was amended to do so, we would have no ground to stand on when demanding our liberty back.

and here
The fact is, the founding fathers believed that our rights are natural and God-given. That is why they opposed England when the king tried to take them away. That is why the bill of rights was proposed (i.e. to acknowledge pre-existing rights, NOT to give them), and that is why some men of the time opposed the BoR - because they were afraid that codifying the rights would make it seem like they were given by the BoR.

About justice, here is another area of presupposition that I will be unable to prove to you. I submit that the violation of human rights is NOT the definition of justice. God is. He is the standard of justice and HE decides what is just. Now, I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate, I'm just explaining how we can say that "anything whose denial causes injustice is a natural right." Because we (or at least I) would go on to say "and injustice is that which God has declared to be unjust." NOT, as you said, "injustice is that thing produced by the denial of natural rights."

By the way, what about being "endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights"? Remember the part about "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? So apparently THEY thought that life was a natural right, given by God (ok, call it "Divine Rights," if you will). I believe that RKBA is one of those rights that we have all been endowed with. I can't prove it, you can't disprove it. Same with your position. It's an axiom, a foundation that must be accepted. Just like yours.

~Dale
 
They are not "divine rights" -- those would be God's rights, if the phrase weren't so inherently absurd in its implication that some things might be outside God's jurisdiction. They are the rights God has given each human being as a consequence of simply existing as a human being.

I also find that your claim that those rights are inalienable is contradicted by your own following post. The rights of Jews and slaves' rights were certainly not inalienable! They were stripped of their rights - by a far lesser authority.

They were not stripped of their rights, they had their rights violated. The rights continue to exist even when injustice is being perpetrated. This is why the Nazis were punished for their crimes. If the rights had vanished there would be no reason or justification for punishing the Nazis because there would have been no crime involved.

I notice that you skipped over the part about your philosophy requiring you to submit to your own execution if some politically powerful group succeeded, like the Nazis in Germany, in making the violation of your rights legal.

Under the assumptions you put forth -- that rights exist only as a result of political documents and public policy -- you CANNOT justify seeking to defend your life or, even, to escape in that situation because your philosophy of rights requires you to admit that you have no rights if the government says you have no rights.

However, the reality remains that God granted you those fundamental, inalienable rights -- regardless of whether you believe in him or not and even regardless of whether you believe that you possess rights or not. And you would thus have the right to defend yourself by any means you could come upon against those who would murder you under the cover of political approval.

You either need to rethink your concept of what rights are or you need to admit that you're fine with rights not existing, merely happy to live in a country where you have some pleasant privileges, and that you would walk willingly to your own execution if the government told you to.

Somehow I don't believe that the willingness to seat yourself in the electric chair on government demand is going to be very persuasive as an argument in favor of anything, especially RKBA.
 
They are not "divine rights" -- those would be God's rights

Yes you're right - my bad. I was using the phrase as RPCVYemen used it here:
You prefer to speak of divine rights - which is fine. I think of the 18th century theories of natural rights as a disguised theory of divine rights.
 
I think that at this point the discussion has revealed that rights must exist on their own, independently of recognition by any particular government or people or else they cannot exist at all.

There is no legitimate basis for using the term "rights" to describe anything that can be freely created or destroyed by the hand of man -- as represented by government authority or social custom -- because a right that can be revoked isn't a right at all.

Rights may be recognized or ignored, upheld or violated, but they exist in and of themselves or there can be no rights whatsoever -- merely privileges and perks which vary from nation to nation, society to society.

If the latter were true the world would be a dire place indeed where any person or group strong enough to seize power in any given region, large or small, could freely do anything to the people under their authority without fear of condemnation or punishment -- because there would be no basis for calling any government illegitimate or any act of said government unjust.
 
I think it would be interesting to see RPCVYemen's definition of a "right." How is it different than a privilege? Is it different?

~Dale
 
But I do not recognize, as a presupposition, the right to steal from another, who presumably has the same Naturan Right to self-defense that my argument presupposes. Accordingly, I do not attempt to steal from anyone.

Wait - the right to steal was not a presupposition!

It was a an assertion to be refuted or supported by the same empirical methodology you used to support you assertion that the right to self-defense was a natural right.

... constitutes a shameless Straw Man attack.

The essence of a Straw Man attack is that I assert that you have said something that you have in fact not said.

I accepted - for purposes of this discussion - three things that I thought you said:

  1. There exist natural rights that pre-exist any instantiation of those rights by the (or any) Constitution.
  2. The right to self defense is one of those natural rights.
  3. The evidence that the right to self defense is in fact one of those natural rights is the predominance in nature of organisms that defend themselves when attacked.

I that the #1 was a presupposition, the #2 was a conclusion, and the #3 was evidence that supported a conclusion, but maybe you are saying that both #1 and #2 are presuppositions.

Do you disagree with any of these three statements? Have I twisted your words in any way with any of these three statement?

Mike
 
I think it would be interesting to see RPCVYemen's definition of a "right." How is it different than a privilege? Is it different?

That's easy:

A right is enumerated in the Constitution, and may not be revoked at the whim of government. An example of a right is the right to keep an bear arms.

A privilege is something that is granted by the whim of government - and may be revoked by the whim of government without any change to the Constitution.

Three examples of privileges (and the last one bugs me :)) :

  1. Driver's License. As far as I know, you have no Constitutional right to a have a driver's license. The government could decide tomorrow to revoke the driver's license of everyone under 21, and I don't think there would be any Constitutional issue.
  2. Consuming alcohol. I think the government could raise the drinking age of from 18 to 21, thereby revoking the privilege of drinking for folks between 18 and 21.
  3. Private Property. This rankles me, but Imminent Domain seems to imply that private property (at least real estate) can be revoked at the whim of government.

Is the distinction clear?

Mike
 
There exist natural rights that pre-exist any instantiation of those rights by the (or any) Constitution.
The right to self defense is one of those natural rights.
The evidence that the right to self defense is in fact one of those natural rights is the predominance in nature of organisms that defend themselves when attacked.

I that the #1 was a presupposition, the #2 was a conclusion, and the #3 was evidence that supported a conclusion, but maybe you are saying that both #1 and #2 are presuppositions.

Bingo. I've probably said that 30 times now, that I accept as a presupposition that the right to self defense is a natural right, and, for the purposes of this argument, I'm not concerned with any other supposed natural rights.

same empirical methodology you used to support you assertion that the right to self-defense was a natural right.

I've NEVER asserted that the right to self-defense was a natural right - I've ALWAYS ONLY presupposed it. I've NEVER used the term "assertion" when speaking of self defense - only "presupposition," "premise," "precept," and "axiom."

You are playing dumb in an attempt to undermine my argument, but it's not a very good charade. It's a Straw Man:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute, then attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

Further, I have never asserted it as being derivitave from its existence in nature; I only point to nature as evidence of its pre-existence. But of course, that doesn't mean it follows; that is to put the cart before the horse, to invert causality - another Straw Man.

So really, I offer #1 as a presupposition; #2 as a concurrent presupposition, and #3 as evidence that presupposition #2 is attractive, if one is so inclined to accept. You do not - that's fine. It's not intended to be infallable, but it does follow for those of us who already agree with #1. Now, for the vast majority of Americans who DO agree with #1 and, by extension, #2, the argument actually begins where you leave off, which may be found as points 3-6 in Post #15, far, far above.

Of course, I'll continue to repeat myself that, just as you do not accept my presuppositions, I do not accept your presuppositions, either, and, thus, your argument bears no more weight with me than mine does with yours.

Insofar as my presupposition is "silly," "poppycock," or somewhere "down the rabbit hole," it is no more so than yours.
 
So really, I offer #1 as a presupposition; #2 as a concurrent presupposition, and #3 as evidence that the presupposition is valid, if one is so inclined to accept.

OK, great. So you in fact agree with the following three statements:

  1. There exist natural rights that pre-exist any instantiation of those rights by the (or any) Constitution.
  2. The right to self defense is one of those natural rights.
  3. The evidence that the right to self defense is in fact one of those natural rights is the predominance in nature of organisms that defend themselves when attacked.

So can we derive from your statement that we may test the validity of the proposition by determining it's predominance in nature?

Mike
 
So we really should be arguing over what a "right" is, not what kind of right RKBA is. According to your definition, RPCVYemen, the term "natural right" is an oxymoron.

And, not to sidetrack, but while I would agree with your definition of a privilege, I would disagree that your examples are, indeed, privileges. In other words, I don't believe that it is the job of the government to say who can and can't get a license, who can and can't drink, and to authorize the steeling of my property.

~Dale
 
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