AlexanderA
Member
And the older you get, the less you care.
BATF does have a gun "registry"
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Old Dog
Member
In the immortal words of the legendary Jim Neighbors (as "Gomer Pyle"): "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"
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wiscoaster
Member
Yes, well, enough citizens with that kind of an attitude and the Second Amendment will end up being repealed. Then it's the fate of the First Amendment .... then the Fourth .... then WTH, why not the whole Constitution, well, because WHO CARES?!?!?
( ... and anyone who was in the military SHOULD care, because they swore an oath to care, and it's a lifetime oath ... )
Your original post was about being on a list, not about the Constitution of the United States.
I don't worry myself with conspiracy theories or what ifs. I also don't do things that will put myself on anyone's radar. I'm sure you and the other 99.9% of gun owners don't either!
Why worry about a given fact of life? Our government is "THE" most corrupt in the world! They just have the most money to hide it.
Until people are willing to realize this fact, burn the whole system to the ground, put a salt mine on it... There will never be "change" as so many say they want.
The system is broke, we're all on a list of some kind, get over it and live your life.
I don't worry myself with conspiracy theories or what ifs. I also don't do things that will put myself on anyone's radar. I'm sure you and the other 99.9% of gun owners don't either!
Why worry about a given fact of life? Our government is "THE" most corrupt in the world! They just have the most money to hide it.
Until people are willing to realize this fact, burn the whole system to the ground, put a salt mine on it... There will never be "change" as so many say they want.
The system is broke, we're all on a list of some kind, get over it and live your life.
Old Dog
Member
I'm getting older all the time, and I still care.
In fact, I care a lot more these days -- because I fear for the future in which my children and grandchildren will live through. Orwell was an optimist
We are giving away our rights to privacy piece by piece, inch by inch, and no one seems to give a damn. We let our cell phones track us (so the government knows every place we go, every business we patronize -- we already know the NSA monitors U.S. citizens); we let businesses track every item we purchase (you think if you get in trouble, the government can't find out to the ounce how much hard liquor, beer and wine you've bought over the past five years) since we all use "rewards" cards or "club" cards. Not to mention all those "survival" items you've been buying at Costco since you became a militant survivalist/prepper... Our text messages and e-mails never go away, we willingly embrace "The Cloud." Cameras on every building, street corner, freeway overpass...
We have ceded the 4th Amendment back to the government. Oh, it's still in the Constitution. Same with the 5th Amendment. But it's all just words now.
Good thing the 1st Amendment is still viable (unless you are not a member of the ruling party or supplicant to the mainstream media).
In fact, I care a lot more these days -- because I fear for the future in which my children and grandchildren will live through. Orwell was an optimist
We are giving away our rights to privacy piece by piece, inch by inch, and no one seems to give a damn. We let our cell phones track us (so the government knows every place we go, every business we patronize -- we already know the NSA monitors U.S. citizens); we let businesses track every item we purchase (you think if you get in trouble, the government can't find out to the ounce how much hard liquor, beer and wine you've bought over the past five years) since we all use "rewards" cards or "club" cards. Not to mention all those "survival" items you've been buying at Costco since you became a militant survivalist/prepper... Our text messages and e-mails never go away, we willingly embrace "The Cloud." Cameras on every building, street corner, freeway overpass...
We have ceded the 4th Amendment back to the government. Oh, it's still in the Constitution. Same with the 5th Amendment. But it's all just words now.
Good thing the 1st Amendment is still viable (unless you are not a member of the ruling party or supplicant to the mainstream media).
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doubleh
Member
Did anyone think they wouldn't do this? If so I would like to talk to you about selling you bridge I have out in the Mescalero Sands. When this started I said to myself, "Self, they now have a record of everyone that buys a new gun" and sure enough, they do.
Megawatt maker
Member
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Are you F@#$%&g kidding me?Who cares?
Seriously, I gave up caring years ago. If you were in the Military, have a passport, drive a car...
You're on a list somewhere, so why does anyone care?
You carry a tracking device around with you all day but worry about being on a list?!
You realize your comparing apples to oranges here right? If I don't want tracked, I can smash my phone and computer. I have that option.
I was in military. I fail to see how that has to do with anything, nor driving a car. Drivers license? Passport? Neither of those are on the same plain as the government having a list of the guns I own.
You are aware, that almost everytime the government had a list of peoples weapons, they at some point collected them, or at least tried to? Read some damn history buddy.
Once Big Brother has my list of weapons owned in my name...there's no going back.
You must be insane.
Who cares? I DO, and I hope to high heaven many others do too, or we are more screwed than I ever thought possible.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I have an idea, Maybe we should stop calling things a registry that aren’t a registry. That way maybe if/when they try to pass one people want think that’s old news and they may even oppose it.
If someone really thinks a registry exists then why oppose a new registry law?
If someone really thinks a registry exists then why oppose a new registry law?
wiscoaster
Member
I seem to care more and more as I get older and older.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Nevermind, decide to keep this one to myself.
wiscoaster
Member
The OP was about an organization that by using the legal process of the Freedom of Information Act discovered factual evidence of an agency that's in charge of interpreting, administering, regulating and enforcing various laws that have been passed with regard to a Constitutional Amendment is itself violating the law, which makes it an issue not about whether an individual's on a list, but whether or not the Constitution is being upheld. That's what I care about, not about being on a list. And if it's broken, it needs to be fixed, not ignored, for us to get on with our lives with our freedoms intact as they are guaranteed by the Constitution.
Mega,
If you're a gun owner, you are on a list! Yes, they have a list of your guns also, you filled out paperwork for them!
Amazingly, I'm reading how mad people are but don't hear about any action.
I'm sure 99% of the gun owners in America think that the Republicans are your friends and care about the 2nd Amendment! Wishful thinking.
You are on a list, move on with life. Change the system if you don't like it.
If you're a gun owner, you are on a list! Yes, they have a list of your guns also, you filled out paperwork for them!
Amazingly, I'm reading how mad people are but don't hear about any action.
I'm sure 99% of the gun owners in America think that the Republicans are your friends and care about the 2nd Amendment! Wishful thinking.
You are on a list, move on with life. Change the system if you don't like it.
wiscoaster
Member
Posting about it is action.
I'm using my First Amendment to try to preserve my Second.
That's action.
wiscoaster
Member
No; it does come as a bit of a surprise when members of a gun forum don't care when that government engages in actions that threaten their freedom to own and to use those guns.
If you have personally dealt with all other governments to determine their level of corruption, you might know what you are talking about but it would still not be relevant to the OP.
But posting about it on a gun forum really will not change anything will it? It's to late the Govt is to big, powerful and has all the money.They do what they want
We have no privacy anymore. The Govt knows pretty much anything and everything about us
Only guns they may not know about are private sales.
wiscoaster
Member
Off topic: I'm off to the range to exercise my Constitutional right and to cool off by taking it out on some paper targets. Hah!!
Maybe true if you're getting so old as to be senile, if you don't have any kids or grand kids that you give a s#it about.
We live in a world of Big Data. Anything that has been bought, sold, texted, opined, etc, can be found and tracked, including that SCAR 17 that was bought with a credit card and shipped to an FFL, after which it was legally transferred to its owner. The 4473 is just one more little piece of the pie, but it’s not the only one. There’s already enough data out there to accomplish evil .gov intent. All it takes is the alignment of the oppressors passing some nasty piece of legislation, some alphabet agency getting free reign, and it’s done.
Sure, obviously private sales and buying things with cash or gold can be done, but that’s not the majority of sales, is it? What about that optic? That ammo? There is already enough data out there that almost everything can be tracked, if the effort is made. Heck. Look at what the ATF is able to do now, with tracking down people who have purchased certain items.
When it gets right down to it, if things get so bad, that they actually DO want to take that rifle, or other items, and the door gets kicked in at 3AM, saying stuff was lost in a “boating accident”, while cute and imaginative, won’t matter one bit when you’re face gets put in the dirt and you get dragged off in ziptie cuffs, with the orbiting aircraft and enforcement folks thinking it’s "just another day", not caring one bit about your protestations, and you wind up in some holding facility thinking that you’ll actually be allowed to “prove” your case. Along with a bunch of other people, in “Red Dawn” fashion.
Don’t get me wrong, I think using 4473’s as a tacit “registry”, or whatever one wants to call it, is wrong. But that ship has sailed. Big Data is already out there.
All we can do is ensure that our politicians and reps are the type of people who will stand against that.
Sure, obviously private sales and buying things with cash or gold can be done, but that’s not the majority of sales, is it? What about that optic? That ammo? There is already enough data out there that almost everything can be tracked, if the effort is made. Heck. Look at what the ATF is able to do now, with tracking down people who have purchased certain items.
When it gets right down to it, if things get so bad, that they actually DO want to take that rifle, or other items, and the door gets kicked in at 3AM, saying stuff was lost in a “boating accident”, while cute and imaginative, won’t matter one bit when you’re face gets put in the dirt and you get dragged off in ziptie cuffs, with the orbiting aircraft and enforcement folks thinking it’s "just another day", not caring one bit about your protestations, and you wind up in some holding facility thinking that you’ll actually be allowed to “prove” your case. Along with a bunch of other people, in “Red Dawn” fashion.
Don’t get me wrong, I think using 4473’s as a tacit “registry”, or whatever one wants to call it, is wrong. But that ship has sailed. Big Data is already out there.
All we can do is ensure that our politicians and reps are the type of people who will stand against that.
doubleh
Member
Well, good luck with that. I agree with what you said but hell will probably be frozen solid before anything is done if ever.
SSN Vet
Member
My favorite $10 per transfer kitchen table FFL had a heart attack and went into nursing home. He gave up his license and his wife turned his binders into the ATF agent. So most all of my purchases are in the ATF's trustworthy hands.
Think about that when you chose who does your Bud's transfers. The large local retailer has been in business for 90 years and probably will be for 90 more.
Think about that when you chose who does your Bud's transfers. The large local retailer has been in business for 90 years and probably will be for 90 more.
entropy
Member
And not exactly a central list. As dogtown Tom says, an FFL must keep 4473's on file for 20 years. Col. Bella tells his men to go to 'the local sporting goods store and obtain forms 4473" which give the invaders a ready made list of some, but not all gun owners. Having had to go over 4473's at one of the stores I worked at (for errors) I can say it is a labor intensive job. Between compiling a list and taking action on it would take a bit of time, not the instantaneous act thought by many.
And while I would rather the whole thing not exist at all, like others have said, this is reality. We'd be more successful trying to get .gov to punish the criminals instead of the innocent who happen to own the same tools. It's kind of odd that though I own the majority of "common burglary tools" (except lockpicks), as many do, there's no rush to register crowbars, glass cutters, lockpicks, etc., and the local gendarmerie don't knock on my (or their own) door everytime there's a burglary.
(I guess on the other hand, burglaries are rarely investigated anymore, and even more rarely prosecuted.
)
D.B. Cooper
Member
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Interesting. How many of you, myself included, who are complaining about this here, have willingly posted your firearm possessions right here on this very public, open to the entire world, internet website? How many of you have posted a photo of yourself with a deer and your rifle? Or a video of you running a USPSA/Steel Challenge course? Some things we just can't control, others, we can.
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