BATF does have a gun "registry"

[dogtown tom]

Wow, just...wow. Shoot the messenger much?

Only if the messenger continues to post dupes of dupes of dupes.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Only if the messenger continues to post dupes of dupes of dupes.

They released documents they received from a FOIA request, showing the ATF is breaking the law..but I'm the dupe.

Right...what ever dude.

You are one of those "complacent" voters I was talking about earlier.

Good luck.

 

[rust collector]

This relates to no specific post, but I am detecting a bit of disparagement that really isn't necessary or helpful. If you have experience or firsthand knowledge, your respectful observation is welcome. If you simply want to reiterate or register your disagreement, knowledge about the topic is not advanced and it may be time to say goodnight.

 

[eyeshot]

So . . are the records turned in to the ATF deleted after they hit the 20 year mark? Or is this only a requirement for FFLs?

Can a FFL keep the records for longer than 20 years?

 

[dogtown tom]

They released documents they received from a FOIA request, showing the ATF is breaking the law..but I'm the dupe.

Right...what the F ever dude.

You are one of those "complacent" voters I was talking about earlier.

Good luck.

And your knowledge of my voting record and political activism you gleaned from what source?
Complacent would be taking the word of GOA at face value.

 

[Megawatt maker]

So . . are the records turned in to the ATF deleted after they hit the 20 year mark? Or is this only a requirement for FFLs?

Can a FFL keep the records for longer than 20 years?

As it is now, but soon to change, a FFL must keep 4473s for 20 years...after which he may destroy them if he wants. Doesnt have to..but can.

New rule in Aug...they can no longer destroy them.

The ATF never has to destroy anything

 

[dogtown tom]

So . . are the records turned in to the ATF deleted after they hit the 20 year mark?

A licensee keeps his Form 4473's in his possession until he goes out of business. Once a Form 4473 reaches age twenty, they can be destroyed by the licensee.
"Out of Business" records that are sent to ATF in Martinsburg are not destroyed at any point. They have numerous storage containers in a parking lot where they are stored.

Or is this only a requirement for FFLs?

Dealers aren't required to destroy anything.

Can a FFL keep the records for longer than 20 years?

Sure. If he has the room. I filled a 4' wide, five drawer lateral file cabinet in ten years. I look forward to getting rid of my old ones ASAP.

 

[bdickens]

Software does. You think they don't have software? Read the GOA article. They are not making it up. They got it with a FOIA request. Its right out if the horses mouth..so to speak.

l


.

Sorry, but you missed the point about where scannable text forms the input for a database. You just don't know what you're talking about. I do have some database coding experience.

I write software for a living. Five or so years ago I wrote software for the FBI that used OCR to enter text from graphics files (among other things) into a searchable database. Afaik it is still in use.

You guys need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that it couldn't be done. Nor did I say that they weren't doing it. What I (and others) said is that merely scanning documents and storing them on the hard drive somewhere doesn't make it a database.

In order for it to be a database the information therein needs to be collated and organized in such a fashion as meaningful searches through it can be conducted. Such as, "names of everyone who brought such and such a brand between these two dates." Or something like that.

Maybe they are doing that, and maybe they are. But the GOA is hardly a reliable, unbiased source of information. They do seem to traffic an awful lot in fear mongering.

I have all kinds of documents scanned and stored on my computer and I can pull one up and search for certain words in it. But the lot of them together hardly makes a database.

Surely, you guys already know this.

A database is an organized collection of structured information, or data, typically stored electronically in a computer system. A database is usually controlled by a database management system (DBMS). Together, the data and the DBMS, along with the applications that are associated with them, are referred to as a database system, often shortened to just database.

https://www.oracle.com/database/what-is-database/

 

[Megawatt maker]

l


.





You guys need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that it couldn't be done. Nor did I say that they weren't doing it. What I (and others) said is that merely scanning documents and storing them on the hard drive somewhere doesn't make it a database.

In order for it to be a database the information therein needs to be collated and organized in such a fashion as meaningful searches through it can be conducted. Such as, "names of everyone who brought such and such a brand between these two dates." Or something like that.

Maybe they are doing that, and maybe they are. But the GOA is hardly a reliable, unbiased source of information. They do seem to traffic an awful lot in fear mongering.

I have all kinds of documents scanned and stored on my computer and I can pull one up and search for certain words in it. But the lot of them together hardly makes a database.

Surely, you guys already know this.

https://www.oracle.com/database/what-is-database/

Again, this isn't the GOA pulling it out of their arse...its a ATF memo, along with other documents, showing them doing just this very thing...searchable database from scanned 4473s. For now, they disabled the ability to list guns by owners names.. but its also something thats very easy to re-enable...again, from their own documents.

Ted Cruz has even commented on all this on the Senate floor. But hey, he has only argued cases before the Supreme Court before he became a Senator, so he is probably only fear mongering too.

Jesus guys...this is real bad stuff they are doing.

I can't believe how many of you either shrug it off, deny it..and twist it. The ATF is breaking the fracking law in a big way here....we need to be fired up over it.

 

[Pat Riot]

So what are they going to do? Nothing

What are we going to do about it? Nothing

Blah! Blah! Blah!

Now, get on with living.

You’re welcome.

 

[SharpDog]

Yes. Of course that will be GOA's next revelation....."ATF IOI's have bionic image capturing eyeballs!!!!"[/QUOTE]

l


.





You guys need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I did not say that it couldn't be done. Nor did I say that they weren't doing it. What I (and others) said is that merely scanning documents and storing them on the hard drive somewhere doesn't make it a database.

In order for it to be a database the information therein needs to be collated and organized in such a fashion as meaningful searches through it can be conducted. Such as, "names of everyone who brought such and such a brand between these two dates." Or something like that.

Maybe they are doing that, and maybe they are. But the GOA is hardly a reliable, unbiased source of information. They do seem to traffic an awful lot in fear mongering.

I have all kinds of documents scanned and stored on my computer and I can pull one up and search for certain words in it. But the lot of them together hardly makes a database.

Surely, you guys already know this.

https://www.oracle.com/database/what-is-database/

Well, maybe you should leave software development to professionals.


That is precisely what my software did. Using proprietary processes (we have a patent) we discover relationships between documents and make them searchable similar to searching in Google. That is, if a photo of a 4473 had say a name and address. Another document had that address with a slightly changed name and a phone number and there was a facebook post of a picture of any individual with that phone number and all three documents were on different hard drives via actual storage, temporary files, cookies, etc on the same (set of) computers our software would indeed link all of the documents and when one was pulled up in a search the related documents would be pulled up as well. This was done automatically without human intervention and we can process many, many terrabytes of data.

 

[Megawatt maker]

So what are they going to do? Nothing

What are we going to do about it? Nothing

Blah! Blah! Blah!

Now, get on with living.

You’re welcome.

I'd love to go on living and be left alone by Big Brother..

That aint gonna happen however. History has taught us that...if you paid attention.

You are plain wrong when you said "So what are they going to do? Nothing".

Wrong wrong wrong way wrong. It may not happen tomorrow or next week, or even next year...but its 100% certain, they will try to grab guns. They will use this database/registry to do it. The only debate is how long till they do it.

Your next point...judging by the shocking amount of "So What" replies on this thread...you may be right...we will do nothing. I hope you're wrong...
Again..time will tell.

Have a wonderful Holiday weekend my friend. Remember what this holiday truely represents...our thanks to our Veterans who died fighting to preserve our liberty.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Yes. Of course that will be GOA's next revelation....."ATF IOI's have bionic image capturing eyeballs!!!!"

Well, maybe you should leave software development to professionals.


That is precisely what my software did. Using proprietary processes (we have a patent) we discover relationships between documents and make them searchable similar to searching in Google. That is, if a photo of a 4473 had say a name and address. Another document had that address with a slightly changed name and a phone number and there was a facebook post of a picture of any individual with that phone number and all three documents were on different hard drives via actual storage, temporary files, cookies, etc on the same (set of) computers our software would indeed link all of the documents and when one was pulled up in a search the related documents would be pulled up as well. This was done automatically without human intervention and we can process many, many terrabytes of data.[/QUOTE]


The thought police on steroids!
Can even add a little "Information retrieval" from Brazil (The dystopian movie).

That pure scary stuff...and its absolute power.

We know what absolute power does.

 

[kidneyboy]

That is precisely what my software did. Using proprietary processes (we have a patent) we discover relationships between documents and make them searchable similar to searching in Google. That is, if a photo of a 4473 had say a name and address. Another document had that address with a slightly changed name and a phone number and there was a facebook post of a picture of any individual with that phone number and all three documents were on different hard drives via actual storage, temporary files, cookies, etc on the same (set of) computers our software would indeed link all of the documents and when one was pulled up in a search the related documents would be pulled up as well. This was done automatically without human intervention and we can process many, many terrabytes of data.

Pretty sure a bunch of the posters here don't understand that this can even be done.
One of the 2 forms needed to purchase a handgun here is filled out on a computer........... no chance of that info going into a database - right?

 

[wiscoaster]

It seems to me pretty much everybody posting here is missing the main point of the thread: is the BATFE doing something in violation of the law? Disagreements on and arguments about what is scanned and when, what and how scanned documents can be digitized and indexed, what is the nature and definition and makeup of a database, what can be searched for and discovered in the scanned documents, etc, etc, make for many pages of posts that don't address that question. The OP was posted because a bunch of lawyers, namely GOA, believes the BATFE is in violation of the law, and that they now have the evidence to prove that, and that is the new development in the question that I wished to make us all aware. Whether or not they're right or wrong on their conclusion I'm not qualified to judge because I'm not a lawyer, and those others of us posting here that aren't lawyers are in the same situation. So, at this point, I feel I have been advised of the status of the situation, and I leave it to the legal experts to determine the best way forward to deal with whatever factual evidence they claim to have discovered.

 

[dogtown tom]

It seems to me pretty much everybody posting here is missing the main point of the thread: is the BATFE doing something in violation of the law? ....

Horsehockey.
It was known to be a violation when ATF started doing it over a decade ago.
It didn't suddenly become a violation when GOA discovered it this week.

 

[wiscoaster]

Horsehockey.
It was known to be a violation when ATF started doing it over a decade ago.
It didn't suddenly become a violation when GOA discovered it this week.

Well, then, what's the argument for? Simply that I didn't know about it a decade ago? Mea culpa.

 

[citizenconn]

Maybe true if you're getting so old as to be senile, if you don't have any kids or grand kids that you give a s#it about.

I resemble that remark.
At this point its just me and the cats. One passed away this month. When the others go; well, I guess I will be ambivalent about everything.

 

[Pat Riot]

I'd love to go on living and be left alone by Big Brother..

That aint gonna happen however. History has taught us that...if you paid attention.

You are plain wrong when you said "So what are they going to do? Nothing".

Wrong wrong wrong way wrong. It may not happen tomorrow or next week, or even next year...but its 100% certain, they will try to grab guns. They will use this database/registry to do it. The only debate is how long till they do it.

Your next point...judging by the shocking amount of "So What" replies on this thread...you may be right...we will do nothing. I hope you're wrong...
Again..time will tell.

Have a wonderful Holiday weekend my friend. Remember what this holiday truely represents...our thanks to our Veterans who died fighting to preserve our liberty.

You have a wonderful Memorial weekend as well.
You may be right and I may be wrong. We’ll see.
One thing I know for sure you will be right if people fight like they say they will by sending money to the NRA, GOA, FPC, etc.
People talk real big until they have to open that wallet or call their Representatives then all of a sudden they have better things to do with their money and their time.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Horsehockey.
It was known to be a violation when ATF started doing it over a decade ago.
It didn't suddenly become a violation when GOA discovered it this week.

It may have been suspected or rumored about a decade ago, but now there is very distinctive proof that its true. Documents from the ATF itself, which it has not denied is true.

Thats the game changer here.

I don't have to be a lawyer to see it violates the law. Its pretty darn obvious.
What bothers me is how many dont care, still don't believe it, blame the messenger, or disregard the extreme danger this new info represents.

Thats called complacency...and thats the most scary part.

 

[Megawatt maker]

You have a wonderful Memorial weekend as well.
You may be right and I may be wrong. We’ll see.
One thing I know for sure you will be right if people fight like they say they will by sending money to the NRA, GOA, FPC, etc.
People talk real big until they have to open that wallet or call their Representatives then all of a sudden they have better things to do with their money and their time.

I just sent some money off to the GOA early this week. I have the wife composing emails to both my Senaters (Toomey, who I don't trust but may get some action, and Dish Rag Casey who will be a waste of the Email and stamp) and Dr John Joyce...who gets it.

I don't send a dime to the NRA till WLP is gone...which sucks because they are the biggest gun in this fight

 

[kidneyboy]

It seems to me pretty much everybody posting here is missing the main point of the thread: is the BATFE doing something in violation of the law?

Of course they are. Every federal agency using an acronym is. How long the citizens tolerate all of this is probably a good question. Apathy, which is very evident in this thread, is what got us here.

 

[rust collector]

Well, it appears that the GOA is achieving its objective. Probably time to let this one go.