BATF does have a gun "registry"

[alsaqr]

i stopped caring about government lists when my Top Secret security clearance with access to CNWDI was granted in 1960. Every five years there was another background investigation.

 

[dogtown tom]

Depends what you define as a "database". Any collection of text where text represents named data items that can be organized and identified by data name and can then be linked to other named data items is a database, regardless of how you choose to label it.

Section A of the 4473 has make, model, serial, type and caliber. Section B has transferee's name, address and personal info. After scanning into a digital text file with delimited fields, any data item in Sec A can be linked to any data item in Sec B. This is the essence of a searchable database. One unique firearm can be linked with its one unique transferee. If this doesn't "register" that firearm to that transferee by actual legal definition, it does so by practical usage. This is why the format of the 4473 was recently changed - so that only the top page would need to be scanned to get all the relevant data.

Tell me how ATF is going to compile a "database", (using any definition you want) when 99% of Form 4473's ARE NOT IN THEIR HANDS TO SCAN.

 

[dogtown tom]

New rule coming into effect very soon...FFLs no longer allowed to destroy 4473s after 20 years...which means at some point ALL records will be with the ATF.

It ain't a rule yet.

Further note on this...they get away with this...they will next change it to..store only for a year than forward to the ATF. Think they won't? If so, I got this bridge for sale.......

Drown them in paper? Love to.

THERE IS A DATABASE NOW! How you not paid attention?

Uh, I'm a gun dealer. I know what is being scanned and you need to educate yourself on the topic of this thread.
And there IS NO DATABASE.

The 4473s are scanned and stored on a DIGITAL DATABASE.

Nope.

They say, for now, the software that enables a search by name is disabled. You know dang well how easy that is to enable again. Think they won't? If you do, I got this bridge for sale.....

Dude...........they HAVE THE DARN FORMS ALREADY!!!!! ATF scans the image so the ladies at the National tracing center don't have to stay for hours in those roach infested shipping containers.

I trust the GOAs journalism way better than any lane stream news source, including Faux News. If you don't, I got this bridge for sale...

That's sad.

All due respect here, what you wrote would be accurate for 1968. What you wrote is the intention of the orginal law. Whats going on NOW, Today, as we speak...is a whole new dark and evil ball game.

With all due respect you haven't a clue.

You can believe what you ATF says if you wish...if you trust them...well in that case, I got this nice bridge over here.....

I don't. But I also know that my 24,000 Form 4473's since 2008 haven't been scanned.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Come August, save a last minute save from the judiciary somewhere (aint goin come out of the commie lead congress) and you WONT be able to destroy those records after 20 years...you'll be handing them over when they find a way to revoke your FFL. (Think they won't? if so, you're far too trusting)..or when you retire if they can't pull that off.

THERE IS A DATA BASE....almost a billion 4473s scanned in so far and counting. Because it NOT YET complete means NOTHING. This is the start. They start with out of business records. Bet your ass, once they catch up with those...THEY WILL require you to send them in even while you are still in business. Call me paranoid if it makes you feel better...I see the writing on the wall. If you don't, you're a fool!
It states with this rule change, which CLEARLY isn't allowed under the law. They get away with it, they WILL keep pushing. You're crazy if you don't see that!

And with all due respect...I DO DAMN WELL KNOW! You're in denial!

Final note...I don't give a single rat turd about those ladies at the tracing center having to deal with roaches. I hope they are HUGE ONES and scare them to death. They work for my enemy. I don't care if they have to freeze while looking through those records.

They, sadly, won't have to deal with those conditions for too much longer, since they are very rapidly scanning those records INTO A DATA BASE!

Open your eyes man.

 

[bdickens]

Just scanning paper forms does not magically turn them into a "database."

 

[wiscoaster]

.... when 99% of Form 4473's ARE NOT IN THEIR HANDS TO SCAN.

They're scanning them during routine FFL audits.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Just scanning paper forms does not magically turn them into a "database."

Software does. You think they don't have software? Read the GOA article. They are not making it up. They got it with a FOIA request. Its right out if the horses mouth..so to speak.

 

[wiscoaster]

Just scanning paper forms does not magically turn them into a "database."

Sorry, but you missed the point about where scannable text forms the input for a database. You just don't know what you're talking about. I do have some database coding experience.

 

[wiscoaster]

Interesting. How many of you, myself included, who are complaining about this here, have willingly posted your firearm possessions right here on this very public, open to the entire world, internet website? How many of you have posted a photo of yourself with a deer and your rifle? Or a video of you running a USPSA/Steel Challenge course? Some things we just can't control, others, we can.

That's a valid point, and yes the information is freely and publicly available, if they look and they look in the right place; however how much easier to just scan FFL paper records during routine audits where the information they want is available already organized in the ways they want to index it and use it. I'm really not too concerned about posting anything personal here, and as a matter of fact, I'm going over to the "What did you shoot today?" thread to post my range trip today.

 

[dogtown tom]

They're scanning them during routine FFL audits.

Are you an FFL?
How many "audits" have you gone through?
Do you know why a particular Form 4473 might be scanned during an inspection?

I've had four compliance inspections. In not a single one did the ATF IOI scan my 4473's.......BECAUSE ITS NOT NEEDED!

If the licensee has significant or numerous errors, omissions or serious violations in his recordkeeping....then yes, the IOI might scan those 4473's as proof of the dealers violations.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Are you an FFL?
How many "audits" have you gone through?
Do you know why a particular Form 4473 might be scanned during an inspection?

I've had four compliance inspections. In not a single one did the ATF IOI scan my 4473's.......BECAUSE ITS NOT NEEDED!

If the licensee has significant or numerous errors, omissions or serious violations in his recordkeeping....then yes, the IOI might scan those 4473's as proof of the dealers violations.

When was your last audit? You seem to forget...we have a new fake president who ordered a "zero tolerance" policy for FFL violations.

 

[wiscoaster]

Are you an FFL?
How many "audits" have you gone through?
Do you know why a particular Form 4473 might be scanned during an inspection?

I've had four compliance inspections. In not a single one did the ATF IOI scan my 4473's.......BECAUSE ITS NOT NEEDED!.

Maybe not in your case, but apparently it's being done:

Here’s what we know. ATF agents have used annual inspections to electronically record the contents of Form 4473’s being kept by federal gun dealers.

e.g. from here (just one of multiple references):
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/02/atf-proposes-make-national-gun-registry-easier/#axzz7UQtuufNI

Then again, did you actually have eyeballs on your inspectors 100% of the time they were there for their visit?

 

[dogtown tom]

When was your last audit?

Last July.

You seem to forget...we have a new fake president who ordered a "zero tolerance" policy for FFL violations.

Do you think FFL's aren't aware of this?
Good grief man.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

That's a valid point, and yes the information is freely and publicly available, if they look and they look in the right place; however how much easier to just scan FFL paper records during routine audits where the information they want is available already organized in the ways they want to index it and use it. I'm really not too concerned about posting anything personal here, and as a matter of fact, I'm going over to the "What did you shoot today?" thread to post my range trip today.

Certainly. It's much easier for them to have data at their fingerprints than to scour through years and years of posts. I think it would be easy for "them" to connect our screen names here with our real names, but I wonder if they would find that juice to be worth the squeeze. My point is a lot of us concerned about privacy, but not really concerned.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Last July.


Do you think FFL's aren't aware of this?
Good grief man.

Last July might as well been last decade. Things have changed very fast in 10 months.

Keep your pencil sharp. Cross your Ts, Dot your Is.

 

[dogtown tom]

Maybe not in your case, but apparently it's being done:

e.g. from here (just one of multiple references):
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/02/atf-proposes-make-national-gun-registry-easier/#axzz7UQtuufNI

Your GOA "article" references a well known incident in Alaska that got a couple of ATF IOI's in trouble.....A DECADE AGO. The second link in that "article" is a bunch of random anonymous posts. Zero creditability.

Then again, did you actually have eyeballs on your inspectors 100% of the time they were there for their visit?

Yes. Of course that will be GOA's next revelation....."ATF IOI's have bionic image capturing eyeballs!!!!"

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Tell me how ATF is going to compile a "database", (using any definition you want) when 99% of Form 4473's ARE NOT IN THEIR HANDS TO SCAN.

Assuming that is true, and I'm sure it is, that doesn't help matters going forward. I've read that they rarely solve crimes with 20+ year old ATF data anyway, so perhaps they're taking the long view on this. In other words, they know they can't get the records from the last 50 years to now, but they can certainly start keeping records now, and in fifty years, when you and I are gone and our much more liberal/progressive/anti gun successors are voting, they'll have 50 years of data to use for their gun confiscation programs. They are looking at this generationally. Joe Biden may not be able to take away the guns, but Chelsea Clinton might. (And I have no idea if she has political aspirations, but you get my point about generational efforts. Who are we raising up to champion the 2nd amendment?)

 

[dogtown tom]

Last July might as well been last decade.

I'm not the one posting old news, but since you think I'm unaware of the Biden Administrations view of gun dealers you seem to forget......
IT'S OLD NEWS AGAIN!!!!
Here's a TTAG article from last summer:https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/n...nspection-and-administrative-action-policies/

Things have changed very fast in 10 months.

No, they really haven't. It's the same anti gun agenda as always.
FFL's arent entirely stupid. We know the IOI's sole purpose in a compliance inspection is to find mistakes by the licensee.

But' c'mon guys..........ya'll are posting OLD NEWS as if it were actualy news. It's not news, it's not new and it gets tiresome.

Here's one for ya: "NFA TAX NOW $200!!!!"

 

[dogtown tom]

.... I've read that they rarely solve crimes with 20+ year old ATF data anyway,...

Only on TV.

 

[wiscoaster]

....ya'll are posting OLD NEWS as if it were actualy news. It's not news, it's not new and it gets tiresome.

It is new news if it's now factually documented by a legally admissable evidentiary process - the application of the Freedom of Information Act.
Seems to me your main gripe is with the GOA. If you have a problem with them, take it up with them. They're still doing good work and getting good results wrt the preservation of our Second Amendment rights , so regardless of how you feel about how they're going about it, they're winning your fight as well as mine.

 

[dogtown tom]

It is new news if it's now factually documented by a legally admissable evidentiary process - the application of the Freedom of Information Act.

What part of IT'S BEEN COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR YEARS do ya'll not get?
And its been discussed here on The High Road many times.

Seems to me your main gripe is with the GOA. If you have a problem with them, take it up with them. They're still doing good work and getting good results wrt the preservation of our Second Amendment rights , so regardless of how you feel about how they're going about it, they're winning your fight as well as mine.

I think the GOA is every bit as corrupt as the NRA, less skilled, less effective.
My mmain gripe is presenting this as something newsworthy.
Up next........"GOA FOIA forces Biden Administration to disclose names of the signers of the Declaration of Independence!!!"

 

[wiscoaster]

What part of IT'S BEEN COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR YEARS do ya'll not get?

You say it's been common knowledge for years and so is not newsworthy, but then in another post you deny that it's been happening. The two points are contradictions. Sorry, pal, but you don't sound like a reliable source for factual information. I'm sticking with GOA.

 

[Megawatt maker]

What part of IT'S BEEN COMMON KNOWLEDGE FOR YEARS do ya'll not get?
And its been discussed here on The High Road many times.


I think the GOA is every bit as corrupt as the NRA, less skilled, less effective.
My mmain gripe is presenting this as something newsworthy.
Up next........"GOA FOIA forces Biden Administration to disclose names of the signers of the Declaration of Independence!!!"

Wow, just...wow. Shoot the messenger much?

 

[SharpDog]

Your GOA "article" references a well known incident in Alaska that got a couple of ATF IOI's in trouble.....A
DECADE AGO. The second link in that "article" is a bunch of random anonymous posts. Zero creditability.

Just scanning paper forms does not magically turn them into a "database."

I write software for a living. Five or so years ago I wrote software for the FBI that used OCR to enter text from graphics files (among other things) into a searchable database. Afaik it is still in use.

 

[dogtown tom]

You say it's been common knowledge for years and so is not newsworthy, but then in another post you deny that it's been happening. The two points are contradictions. Sorry, pal, but you don't sound like a reliable source for factual information. I'm sticking with GOA.

Sorry pal, I've not denied for one second that ATF has been scanning some 4473's. Again, its common knowledge that ATF scans Out Of Business records.
As far as ATF making it a regular practice to scan 4473's currently in possession of the dealer? That ain't happening.