BATF, Equal Opportunity Offender?

[C5rider]

I've seen various threads posted asking whether getting an FFL is worth the hassle of working with the BATF. I also have a neighbor who gave up his FFL when the BATF started showing up, asking his wife questions about paperwork (they actually stopped her along the road).

Now, that made me wonder if the Bureau was as "thorough" with the "A" and the "T" segments as they are with the "F" portion? I don't know of any forums for the other two segments of their jurisdiction so, I just thought I'd ask the question here. Anyone have prior experience with them in those other arenas?

 

[klyph]

I believe the other functions are now handled by the TTB.

 

[alsaqr]

I don't know of any forums for the other two segments of their jurisdiction so, I just thought I'd ask the question here. Anyone have prior experience with them in those other arenas?

Never had any experience with the T guys at BATFE. In the early 60s i blew up moonshine stills in the Carolinas for the A guys. i hold federal licenses for the use and storage of explosives. IMO: The E guys at BATFE are fine folks.

 

[MtnCreek]

They overlap. The same guy can work both Firearms and E. I don't know about their other interests.

 

[dogtown tom]

MtnCreek They overlap. The same guy can work both Firearms and E. I don't know about their other interests.

True. My old IOI came by my place in the afternoon.....that morning he had been in an explosives magazine counting bags of explosive. He said powder magazines are hot, dirty, nasty places with lots of spiders.

 

[C5rider]

So, if they overlap, do they use similar tactics and antics that we hear about from FFL holders? Or do they act differently or, are the FFL holders' perceptions different from the other A, T and E certification holders? Just wondered about this and the fact that it sounds that the same folks are checking up on both makes me wonder if their actions are across-the-board or, reserved for that precious few who hold an FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

C5rider So, if they overlap, do they use similar tactics and antics that we hear about from FFL holders?

I have yet to experience any negative behavior by the ATF personnel that I've dealt with. They have all been courteous, professional and helpful.

Then again, I didn't have any guns missing from my inventory or 4473's with missing information.

 

[Deanimator]

Then again, I didn't have any guns missing from my inventory or 4473's with missing information.

Neither did Louis Katona...

 

[2DREZQ]

I've never had anything but positive experiences from ATF. Even when they found a couple of mistakes I had made, they were nice about it. I don't mind talking to them at all.

 

[Mobuck]

I was "intimidated" out of business. All sorts of threats about legal action for a couple of slight errors. No firearms were unaccounted for or anything like that-just paperwork out of order and less than legible handwriting on forms that got wet during a basement flooding episode. The biggest thing they jumped me about was "lack of advertising" and not having a separate phone for the shop. The compliance officer indicated I would not be able to renew my FFL since I was "outside the city limits and police response area". I don't remember seeing that line in the requirements for having an FFL. Also, since I'd been doing a fair amount of internet selling and transfers, they didn't think I was actually attempting to run a business. Since when is internet selling not "running a business"?
I'm too old to put up with that sort of crap so I closed. I figured sooner or later, one of the snotty replies would result in my doing something prosecutable and then I'd be in deep doodoo.

 

[silvermane_1]

interested thread, but what about folks that have FFL just save money on firearm purchases?

 

[Sam1911]

interested thread, but what about folks that have FFL just save money on firearm purchases?

Are you speaking of the Type 03 Collector's FFL? That's a totally different animal.

You don't get a Type 01 Dealer's FFL to enhance or save money on your personal collection.

 

[bikerdoc]

The alcohol guys I ran into as a kid in the sixies were a bunch of fat imcompetants. The F guys that come into the store where I work p/t are OK and professional. One of the T guys out of Norfolk was arrested, fired, and prosecuted (he plead guilty) in a cigarette case he was working undercover.

 

[MtnCreek]

When I retire, I’d like to open a small country convenience store and name it “Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms”. Sorry, I had to say it…

 

[dogtown tom]

Mobuck I was "intimidated" out of business. All sorts of threats about legal action for a couple of slight errors.

unfortunately ATF considers any error or omission as a "willful" action. While it is doubtful that a single missing signature on a 4473 or a transposed digit in your A&D book will get your FFL yanked, a pattern of these errors will.

The biggest thing they jumped me about was "lack of advertising" and not having a separate phone for the shop.

If an ATF Industry Operations Investigator told you this you should have immediately reported it to his supervisor, as neither is required by Federal law or ATF regulation. I don't advertise, never will and use the same phone for home and business purposes.

The compliance officer indicated I would not be able to renew my FFL since I was "outside the city limits and police response area". I don't remember seeing that line in the requirements for having an FFL.

I've never heard of a "compliance officer" with ATF. Are you sure they were ATF and not a local zoning official? Again, there is no Federal law or ATF regulation that requires you to be inside city limits or a "police response area" whatever that is.

Also, since I'd been doing a fair amount of internet selling and transfers, they didn't think I was actually attempting to run a business. Since when is internet selling not "running a business"?

Internet sales and transfers are most certainly business activities under ATF regulations.....heck, thats what I do. ATF doesn't care how you do your business as long as you can legallly do so from your licensed premises.

I'm too old to put up with that sort of crap so I closed. I figured sooner or later, one of the snotty replies would result in my doing something prosecutable and then I'd be in deep doodoo.

Not me. Step on my rights and I'll bark.

 

[The Man With No Name]

The compliance officer indicated I would not be able to renew my FFL since I was "outside the city limits and police response area"

No offense but I found this part kind of funny. You are were still in some county that had a sheriff's office I assume? Frankly I wouldn't believe you if I didn't have a personal friend that stopped dealing in firearms because of experiences he had that were eerily close to yours.

 

[C5rider]

Well, I think we've established that the "F" contingent has their share of unnecessary proddings but, back to the original question. Some have said that the same folks ARE working all aspects of the BATFE. So, if that's the case, are the handlings of those other areas similar? Is there a change in how the holders of those other licenses are viewed by those in the bureau?

I know that there will ALWAYS be those who honestly, can't handle authority and will allow their lack of restraint to carry them to places where a reasonable, upstanding person might not. I'm just trying to figure out whether these almost-draconian stories are a firearm-specific thing or, if it's a bureau-wide situation.

 

[dogtown tom]

C5rider ....So, if that's the case, are the handlings of those other areas similar?.....

Same IOI's......different circumstances. Typically a firearms dealer will have many times the transactions of an explosives dealer and a larger customer base. If an FEL (explosives dealer) makes enough mistakes or ommissions he will get spanked just as hard as an FFL.

Just like any contact with local, state or Federal government, whether it be IRS, DMV, local PD, the dog catcher or ATF........the only time you see something posted on the internet is when they misbehave. Undoubtably, there are thousands of contacts between gun dealers and ATF Industry Operations Investigators every year that result in nothing at all.