BATF speaks on loaning, storing and moving firearms

[RX-79G]

I wrote to the BATF several weeks ago with several specific questions on how Federal law affects the things you do with firearms, specifically what the limits on loans are, whether you can store a gun out of state, the laws pertaining to shipping to yourself, etc. These topics come up all the time, and so far we have relied on Frank's legal advice.

Getting complete answers took three back and forth exchanges to get past initial boilerplate replies, so I have edited the emails by question and reply to keep in readable and relevant:

1. Can I ship firearms to myself? I've read that I can, but can't find the USC code that talks about it. Is there a US Code that actually states that it is legal to ship a firearm to myself, or is that a ruling or other decision that permits it because there is no legal prohibition? I assume that a webpage FAQ on the ATF site is not same as a law, and would really like to know the legal basis of this FAQ answer.

Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner of the firearm “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner of the firearm must not open the package or take possession of the firearm. The out-of-State resident is encouraged to place the package in a safe and secure location until the owner of the firearm is available to take physical possession.

Shipment to self: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...s-or-her-use-hunting-or-other-lawful-activity

There is no law citation for this. This information has been given out and will not change.

2. I live in Wisconsin, and I'm moving to Virginia in a few months. I won't have a house immediately in VA, and will need to store and later move my rifles from WI to VA, and I've been getting conflicting advice. I do not want to lose ownership of any of my firearms by accidentally "transferring" them to someone else, or have to go through an FFL with all of them:

Can I leave my firearms in storage in a friend's basement in WI? If not, could I leave them in a rented storage unit in WI, and what's the difference between the two? How long could I store a firearm in another state before I would lose ownership of it? Could you provide the USC or CFR code for this? Can I contract a moving company to pick up the properly unmarked boxed firearms from my friend's house or storage unit and have them deliver them to my new home in VA?

If I use a mover, do I have to be present when they pick up my firearms? I understand an agent or friend can't "ship" guns for me, but can I arrange a pickup of my guns by the carrier I contract with?

You are allowed to include firearms with your household goods movement providing you follow the conditions of your moving company. If using a moving company, the person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.

if you decide to leave your firearms with anyone, then they nor the shipping company may not ship them directly to you. They will have to go to an FFL in their State and have the firearms shipped to a dealer in the State you will now reside in as non-licensees CANNOT ship to someone not residing in their State of Residence. You will then have to go to the FFL in your State and fill out ATF Form 4473 and pass a background check before you can take possession.

ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

Yes, you must be present if you use a mover to transport your firearms, you cannot arrange pick up of your firearms. Additionally, the carrier does not have to transport any firearms if it is against their policy. For additional information See 27 CFR 478.31.

3. Under what circumstances can I loan a firearm for sporting purposes interstate? I've read that I can loan a firearm to someone visiting me in my home state for hunting, but can I travel to another state and loan a firearm there (take a friend hunting in WY)? Can I loan a firearm to a friend and have that friend hunt with it in a third state? Is storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan? I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.

...see Firearms Regulations Reference Guide: (B2) May an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA in any State?
Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursu*ant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29].

Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

If one Mod would like the entirety of the email exchange between myself and [email protected] forwarded to them to confirm, I'm happy to do so. What I just posted was direct copy and paste with omissions primarily for clarity, not content.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I wrote to the BATF several weeks ago with several specific questions on how Federal law affects the things you do with firearms, specifically what the limits on loans are, whether you can store a gun out of state, the laws pertaining to shipping to yourself, etc. These topics come up all the time, and so far we have relied on Frank's legal advice....

Everything you posted is consistent with what I wrote

1. Here:

   ...My guns are all still in Reno. I had contemplated driving there to pick up my guns and then back... My friend who's house my guns are located at said that he was told by UPS that shipping the guns back to me would be a felony..
   
   Which I'm assuming might be true if they were his guns. But they are mine. So if I were to pay for the guns to be shipped back to me; is that OK??....

   Giving guns to someone in another State to store for you is highly problematic under federal law.
   
   The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.
   
   And in the context of the concerns intended to be address by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.
   
   Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.
   
   

   1. In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
      
      
   2. The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
      
      
   3. The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
      
      
      • Possession means:

        1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

        
        
      • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
        
        Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
        
        
        • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

          ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

          
          
        • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

          2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

        • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

          Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

        
        
      • Let's look at the statutes:
        
        
        • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

          (a) It shall be unlawful—
          ...
          
          (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

          
          
        • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

          (a) It shall be unlawful—
          ...
          
          (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

        
        
      • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" do not necessarily imply ownership and include possession. They will be read and applied by a court according to their ordinary meanings. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

        ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

      
      
   4. Is there no way to store your gun in another State?
      
      
      • Leaving a gun with someone in another State clearly raises interstate transfer problems when that person has access to the gun.
        
        
      • One possible way to avoid the problem would be to secure the gun or guns in a locked case or similar container to which only you have the key or combination.
        
        
      • That might avoid the transfer problem inherent in having someone store your guns, ATF has advised here that one may ship a firearm to himself in care of another person in another State.
        
        Specifically ATF has said (emphasis added):

        6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?
        
        

        Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.​

      
      
   5. Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.

   
   
2. And here:

   RX-79G has posted a lot of incorrect information in this thread. I'm going to try to correct some of that:
   
   

   1. Post 22:

      ...The subject of loaning your spouse a gun is a little strange since most things married people own are considered common property - they don't go through probate....

      That fundamentally misstates the law:
      
      
      • Only nine States are community property states. Under common law marital property principles it can be a question of fact whether a particular item is jointly owned or individually loaned. Even under community property principles depending on the exact circumstances a particular item may be the separate property of one spounce.
        
        
      • Also, the term probate refers to the judicial process for the settlement of a decedent's estate when he has died with a will. The process applies even if it turns out that the sole beneficiary of the estate is the spouse. Among other things probate involves qualifying an executor to act as the person representative of the decedent to handle the winding up of his affairs, the collection of debts owed to the estate, the payment of debts of the estate, and the management of the assets of the decedent until all other matters have been taken care of and the estate is ready to be distributed to the beneficiary or beneficiaries under the will.
      
      
   2. Post 22:

      ....you can loan, sell or give your firearm to anyone who can legally own one in your state. And you can loan a gun to someone out of state....

      That is such an oversimplification that it is wrong and misleading:
      
      
      • Whether, how, or under what circumstances you can loan, sell, or give a gun to someone who is a resident of your State (and can legally own one) depends on the laws of your State. In some States there are limitation as to when and to whom one may loan a gun. In some States there are procedures (e. g., a background check through an FFL) required to loan (under some circumstances), sell, or give a gun to someone.
        
        
      • With regard to interstate loans, as will be discussed in depth later an interstate loan is, under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a transfer subject to various limitations.
      
      
   3. Post 26:

      Whoa there. Let's not go making that statement.
      
      The general thing here would be that you can NOT transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without going through an FFL.

      In Federal rules, it isn't a "transfer". Possession isn't ownership, and "transfer" is a transfer of ownership....

      RX-79G doesn't cite any legal authority for his statement, and he is wrong.
      
      The federal laws relating to the transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another (i. e., the Gun Control Act of 1968 or GCA68) are about physical possession, not ownership. GCA68 was Congress' responding to enormous public pressure after the assassinations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms. It was structured so that to the extent reasonably possible any transfer of possession of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another would have to go through an FFL.
      
      In the context of the concerns intended to be address by Congress through GCA68, it's possession and not ownership that matters. Someone who has a gun in his possession can use it, whether or not he has legal title to it.
      
      The word "transfer" means what it means; and it absolutely is not limited to a change in ownership. It has to do with a change of possession, and possession is about physical control, not legal title.
      
      The common definitions of "possession" and "transfer" will generally be used by a court in applying the statutes as outlined in Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:

      ...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

      
      
      • In general, any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL who will follow all usual formalities (e. g., completion of the 4473). There are a few limited, narrow, specific exceptions: if you have an appropriate federal firearms license; inheritance by will or intestate succession; or a loan (subject to a number of limitations which will be discussed in more detail below).
        
        
      • The applicable federal statutes are: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922 (b)(3). The full texts of those statutes may be found here.
        
        
      • The federal laws I've cited are about possession, not necessarily ownership.
        
        
        • Possession means:

          1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

          
          
        • Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
          
          Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
          
          
          • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

            ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

            
            
          • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

            2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

          • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

            Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

          
          
        • Let's look at the statutes:
          
          
          • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

            (a) It shall be unlawful—
            ...
            
            (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

            
            
          • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

            (a) It shall be unlawful—
            ...
            
            (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

          
          
        • Note carefully the words of those statutes. Words, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver" are not necessarily words of ownership. They include physical possession.
        
        
      • Note that violations of federal law regarding interstate transfers are punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine; and since the crime is a felony one will lose his gun rights for the rest of his life.
      
      
   4. Post 26:

      ...The GCA is rather sensible in making the difference between having a gun and owning a gun a pretty strong and obvious line...

      RX-79G doesn't tell us exactly how or where the GCA makes that distinction. As discussed above, the GCA does not.
      
      Indeed, the GCA very clearly applies to all transfers of possession -- not just ownership. As noted above the words of the GCA, like "transport", "receive", "obtained", "transfer", "give", "transport", and "deliver", refer to physical possession, not ownership.
      
      And let's also look specifically at the language of the GCA regarding the loaning of a gun:
      
      
      • 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...
        
        (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

        
        
      • And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

        (a) It shall be unlawful—
        ...
        
        (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
        
        

        (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and
        
        (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

        ..

        
        
      • So under federal law a resident of one State may loan a gun to a resident of another State, but only temporarily and only for a lawful sporting purpose.
        
        
        • Temporary means:

          : continuing for a limited amount of time : not permanent
          
          : intended to be used for a limited amount of time

          
          
        • Sporting means (in this context):

          ...of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport...

          
          
        • Purpose means (in this context):

          : the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

        
        
      • So a court is likely to look at the "temporary loan for a lawful sporting purpose" exception to the prohibition on interstate transfers to apply when a gun is loaned so that the person it's been loaned to can engage in a specific sporting activity (i. e., a hunt, a competition, etc.) of limited duration. "Temporary" would refer to the duration of that activity. Such an interpretation would be consistent with the common meanings of the words used in the statutes and the underlying purpose (controlling interstate transfers of firearms) of GCA68.
        
        
      • And while you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt, if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no applicable "loan" exception. Since there is no applicable loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.
        
        
      • So under certain, specified circumstances (temporarily, for lawful sporting purposes, and not taken back to his home State by the person to whom it was loaned) a loan of a firearm is a narrow exception to the general rule that any transfer of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL. So --
        
        
        • A loan of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another under different circumstances is an interstate transfer subject to the GCA; and
          
          
        • Therefore, a loan is a transfer of a firearm covered by the GCA.
      
      
   5. Post 34:

      No. Please, no. Do not give people this advice.
      
      The way it works is you cannot transfer possession of a firearm across state lines without an FFL

      You don't know what you're talking about. A loan or rental isn't a transfer, it's a loan...

      As discussed above, a loan or rental by a resident of one State to a resident of another is a transfer within the GCA. RX-79G doesn't know what he is talking about.
      
      
   6. Post 43:

      ...This thread is full of complete misunderstandings about the difference between a transfer, loan and communal property. Someone with their thinking hat on would start at the beginning and see if they could learn something instead of just posting more objections....

      Yes, and all of that misunderstanding is the result of RX-79G's ignorance.
      
      
   7. Post 43:

      ...It isn't prudent or conservative to misinform people about their rights or the law....

      Which is why I'm concerned about the nonsense that RX-79G has been posting.

 

[RX-79G]

And while you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt, if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no applicable "loan" exception. Since there is no applicable loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.

"Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?"

As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

 

[Frank Ettin]

Now let's break things down a bit.

1. 1. Can I ship firearms to myself? I've read that I can, but can't find the USC code that talks about it. Is there a US Code that actually states that it is legal to ship a firearm to myself, or is that a ruling or other decision that permits it because there is no legal prohibition? I assume that a webpage FAQ on the ATF site is not same as a law, and would really like to know the legal basis of this FAQ answer.
   
   

   Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner of the firearm “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner of the firearm must not open the package or take possession of the firearm. The out-of-State resident is encouraged to place the package in a safe and secure location until the owner of the firearm is available to take physical possession.
   
   Shipment to self: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...s-or-her-use-hunting-or-other-lawful-activity
   
   There is no law citation for this. This information has been given out and will not change.

   ...

   
   And I have cited the ATF FAQ in a number of posts, including the first one I cited above.
   
   

2. 2. I live in Wisconsin, and I'm moving to Virginia in a few months. I won't have a house immediately in VA, and will need to store and later move my rifles from WI to VA, and I've been getting conflicting advice. I do not want to lose ownership of any of my firearms by accidentally "transferring" them to someone else, or have to go through an FFL with all of them:
   
   Can I leave my firearms in storage in a friend's basement in WI? If not, could I leave them in a rented storage unit in WI, and what's the difference between the two? How long could I store a firearm in another state before I would lose ownership of it? Could you provide the USC or CFR code for this? Can I contract a moving company to pick up the properly unmarked boxed firearms from my friend's house or storage unit and have them deliver them to my new home in VA?
   
   If I use a mover, do I have to be present when they pick up my firearms? I understand an agent or friend can't "ship" guns for me, but can I arrange a pickup of my guns by the carrier I contract with?
   
   

   You are allowed to include firearms with your household goods movement providing you follow the conditions of your moving company. If using a moving company, the person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.
   
   if you decide to leave your firearms with anyone, then they nor the shipping company may not ship them directly to you. They will have to go to an FFL in their State and have the firearms shipped to a dealer in the State you will now reside in as non-licensees CANNOT ship to someone not residing in their State of Residence. You will then have to go to the FFL in your State and fill out ATF Form 4473 and pass a background check before you can take possession.
   
   ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.
   
   Yes, you must be present if you use a mover to transport your firearms, you cannot arrange pick up of your firearms. Additionally, the carrier does not have to transport any firearms if it is against their policy. For additional information See 27 CFR 478.31.

   ...

   
   
   • The question of shipping one's guns with his household goods being transported by a moving company has seldom come up here. But ATF's response is consistent with 18 USC 922(e) and 18 Usc 922(f). I addressed the question here:

     ...

     ...if he were a resident of NV and intends to relocate to TX, would it be OK under federal law to:
     
     

     • retain possession of them at all times while traveling between those states, or
     • take them himself to UPS or FedEx, shipping them to himself, with no one other than himself accepting delivery from the carrier

     ?....

     
     If you move from one State to another, you can certainly take your guns with you. The ATF concurs:

     May a person who is relocating out-of-State move firearms with other household goods?
     
     Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence. If using a moving company, the person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.
     
     Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from ATF before such firearms may be moved interstate. He or she should also check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

     
     As far as shipping guns to oneself by FedEx or UPS, it would apparently be legal, but the last time I looked both FedEx and UPS would, under the terms of their shipping policies, accept a gun for shipment by a non-licensee only if it were being shipped to an FFL....

     
     
   • ATF's statements with regard to guns left behind with someone are consistent with what I have opined. The guns left behind are in the possession of a resident of one State, and therefore the person having possession would, if he ships them, be transferring the guns to a resident of another State. Therefore the transfer must go through an FFL in the transferee's State.
     
     
   • And ATF doesn't have jurisdiction over leaving guns with a friend because that would be a private, intrastate transfer outside the scope of the GCA. It would be subject however to state law.
   
   

3. 3. Under what circumstances can I loan a firearm for sporting purposes interstate? I've read that I can loan a firearm to someone visiting me in my home state for hunting, but can I travel to another state and loan a firearm there (take a friend hunting in WY)? Can I loan a firearm to a friend and have that friend hunt with it in a third state? Is storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan? I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.
   
   
   

   ...see Firearms Regulations Reference Guide: (B2) May an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA in any State?
   Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursu*ant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29].

   
   Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?
   
   

   As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.

   ...

   
   
   • No one ever said that 18 USC 922(a)(3) prevents travel with a loaned gun. What that statutes prevents is the borrower taking the gun home with him.
     
     
   • ATF has not added any clarity to the question of what a lawful sporting purpose is or the permissible duration of a loan.
     
     
   • ATF did not really answer the question of whether storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan.

 

[RX-79G]

Giving guns to someone in another State to store for you is highly problematic under federal law.


Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

Which appears to conflict with:

ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

 

[RX-79G]

Frank, I'm not calling you out as being wrong, wrong and all wrong. A long time ago you told me to check with the ATF about certain things, and I have.

Their responses conflict with SOME of the things you and other mods have claimed, and have validated other things you have claimed.


Instead of making this a war of quotes between you and the ATF, why not accept the new information and make good use of it?

 

[Frank Ettin]

As usual you don't know what you're talking about. I'm out right now and will further explain why you're wrong when I return home.

 

[RX-79G]

Frank,

This isn't about me. I asked straightforward questions, even referencing some of the USC that you had, and posted the ATF's straightforward answers.


This has nothing to do with old threads, so if you want to argue about something, please argue with what the ATF sent me and I posted in the OP. You can continue to call me ignorant or whatever - at this point I'm just the messenger.

 

[dogtown tom]

RX-79G :"Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?"


BATF: As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

Poorly phrased question and an equally poorly phrased ATF response.

"Someone" isn't defined. If a resident of Texas loans a firearm to another resident of Texas it doesn't matter where the borrower travels with the loaned firearm.

If that "someone" isn't a resident of Texas, then it is quite likely an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm. ATF's ambiguous response "As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms" seems to obscure the fact that there is a prohibition on nonlicensee to nonlicensee transfers when the parties are not residents of the same state.

The problem with asking ATF questions........they aren't law, they aren't binding and the answers aren't always correct.

 

[barnbwt]

...not like these letters mean anything anyway

 

[RX-79G]

Poorly phrased question and an equally poorly phrased ATF response.

"Someone" isn't defined. If a resident of Texas loans a firearm to another resident of Texas it doesn't matter where the borrower travels with the loaned firearm.

If that "someone" isn't a resident of Texas, then it is quite likely an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm. ATF's ambiguous response "As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms" seems to obscure the fact that there is a prohibition on nonlicensee to nonlicensee transfers when the parties are not residents of the same state.

The problem with asking ATF questions........they aren't law, they aren't binding and the answers aren't always correct.

Which is why the complete question was:

3. Under what circumstances can I loan a firearm for sporting purposes interstate? I've read that I can loan a firearm to someone visiting me in my home state for hunting, but can I travel to another state and loan a firearm there (take a friend hunting in WY)? Can I loan a firearm to a friend and have that friend hunt with it in a third state? Is storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan? I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.

AND

Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

The ATF was given a very detailed question, including references the US Code and specific questions about traveling out of state to loan the weapon. All of these questions were contained in one email stream, so the nature of the question and the ATF's simple responses are not the result of any sort of incomplete or confusing question.

The ATF clearly represents that Federal Laws do not have any specific restrictions about "loans for lawful sporting purposes" in terms of time or place, outside of the usual restrictions on certain types of people.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...at this point I'm just the messenger....

A messenger who doesn't understand the message, who sees things in the message that aren't there, and who tried to explain the message and gets it wrong. The problem isn't the message. The problem is your lack of understanding of the message. So --

1. Giving guns to someone in another State to store for you is highly problematic under federal law.
   
   
   Giving someone your gun to store for you will be considered a transfer. It certainly is under federal law, and would also most likely be also considered a transfer under state laws. That's just what "transfer" means.

   
   Which appears to conflict with:
   

   ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

   
   
   • You ignore the context in which I made the comment. The comment was made in this post, quoted my me in post 2 of this thread. The context was temporarily storing guns in another State when moving, and why doing so is problematic is fully described in that post.
     
     
   • And ATF would agree, pointing out (as you quote ATF in post 1):

     ....if you decide to leave your firearms with anyone, then they nor the shipping company may not ship them directly to you. They will have to go to an FFL in their State and have the firearms shipped to a dealer in the State you will now reside in as non-licensees CANNOT ship to someone not residing in their State of Residence. You will then have to go to the FFL in your State and fill out ATF Form 4473 and pass a background check before you can take possession.
     
     ....
     
     Yes, you must be present if you use a mover to transport your firearms, you cannot arrange pick up of your firearms. Additionally, the carrier does not have to transport any firearms if it is against their policy. For additional information See 27 CFR 478.31....

     
     
   • Furthermore, leaving guns with someone could also be problematic under state law in States that regulate private, intrastate transfers.
   
   

2. And while you may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt, if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no applicable "loan" exception. Since there is no applicable loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a loan of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.

   
   "Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?"
   
   

   As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

   ....

   
   
   • And here you demonstrate poor reading compression. I wasn't commenting in general on borrowing a gun and going from one State to another. I was commenting on someone borrowing a gun and going specifically back to his State of residence. And doing so (unless lawfully borrowed from an FFL as discussed in this post) is prohibited by the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3).
     
     
   • 18 USC 922(a)(3) provides (emphasis added):

     18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
     
     (a) It shall be unlawful—
     ...
     
     

     (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
     
     

     (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
     
     (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
     
     (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

     
     
   • The phrase "otherwise obtained" would, in plain English, include borrowed.
     
     
   • Thus a person who borrows from someone (not an FFL) who is a resident of a different State a gun and transports that gun or receives that gun in his State of residence has violated the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3). That situation was not specifically addressed by ATF.
   
   

3. The ATF clearly represents that Federal Laws do not have any specific restrictions about "loans for lawful sporting purposes" in terms of time or place, outside of the usual restrictions on certain types of people.

   That is not true. You are reading things into the ATF response that aren't there.
   
   
   • You asked:

     Under what circumstances can I loan a firearm for sporting purposes interstate? I've read that I can loan a firearm to someone visiting me in my home state for hunting, but can I travel to another state and loan a firearm there (take a friend hunting in WY)? Can I loan a firearm to a friend and have that friend hunt with it in a third state? Is storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan? I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.

     
     
   • ATF's response was, as you quoted it in post 1:

     ......see Firearms Regulations Reference Guide: (B2) May an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA in any State?
     Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursu*ant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29].

     
     
   • So --
     
     
     • ATF did refer to the specific restriction on a loan that it be temporary and for a lawful sporting purpose. It did not attempt to address what "temporary" meant in that context, nor did it attempt to address what "sporting purpose" meant in that context. However, both the temporary nature of the loan and the limited purposes for which that loan is permitted are restrictions.
       
       
     • The question set the parameters for the answer: loaning a gun to someone visiting you from out-of-state for a hunt in your State; taking a friend hunting in another State; or loaning a gun to a friend so he could hunt in a third State. That doesn't exhaust the possibilities, and ATF's superficial and brief answer gives no hint that ATF considered other possibilities in responding. Certainly the question of loaning someone a gun to take back to his State of residence wasn't addressed specifically.
       
       
     • And ATF appears to have completely ignored the storage question.
   
   

   ....the nature of the question and the ATF's simple responses are not the result of any sort of incomplete or confusing question....

   I see no reason to accept your conclusion on that. It would also be interesting to know who responded. Often these email queries answered by clerks who rely on can responses. Certainly these response appear to be little more than repetitions of ATF responses from its various on-line FAQs.
   
   However, when administrative agencies choose to respond to requests for interpretive opinions or guidance, the response come from the agency's legal division.
   
   

4. ...why not accept the new information and make good use of it?

   Indeed there is nothing new here. All this ATF material has been on its website for years. And while it has been, and is, useful to a point, it really has been addressed some of the more detail and trickier questions raised on this board and which have been the subject of past discussion.

 

[RX-79G]

And ATF appears to have completely ignored the storage question.

No, they said:

ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

Thus a person who borrows from someone (not an FFL) who is a resident of a different State a gun and transports that gun or receives that gun in his State of residence has violated the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3). That situation was not specifically addressed by ATF.

Sure it is, because after they said:

A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

And I asked for clarification:

Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

And they replied:

As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

How could someone possible be able to borrow and travel with a firearm over state lines, yet be unable to go home with it?

And that's after I and specifically referenced 922(a)(3) when my question included:

I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.

 

[lilguy]

If you drive to a different state than you live in with a defense hand gun that you are licensed to carry. Can you ship said hand gun back to your home address for you to receive after having flown home?
I ask because we drove to Florida from Illinois and flew home, my wife was concerned about transporting the firearm through checked baggage and wanted me to ship it home. I did not know the answer, the check in was problem free as I expected but I can't determine if I could have sent it to myself from a state I
was visiting. Thanks

 

[RX-79G]

If you drive to a different state than you live in with a defense hand gun that you are licensed to carry. Can you ship said hand gun back to your home address for you to receive after having flown home?
I ask because we drove to Florida from Illinois and flew home, my wife was concerned about transporting the firearm through checked baggage and wanted me to ship it home. I did not know the answer, the check in was problem free as I expected but I can't determine if I could have sent it to myself from a state I
was visiting. Thanks

Legally, yes. Practically, no. You can't ship a handgun through the post office, and UPS and FedEx won't accept a shipment to yourself.

People do it with rifles.

 

[Frank Ettin]

And ATF appears to have completely ignored the storage question.

No, they said:

ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

Phooey!

That wasn't the question I said they ignored. The question I said they ignored, as quoted in post 12 was (in bold):

...You asked:

Under what circumstances can I loan a firearm for sporting purposes interstate? I've read that I can loan a firearm to someone visiting me in my home state for hunting, but can I travel to another state and loan a firearm there (take a friend hunting in WY)? Can I loan a firearm to a friend and have that friend hunt with it in a third state? Is storing a firearm at a friend's house out-of-state a type of loan? I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision.

...

Thus a person who borrows from someone (not an FFL) who is a resident of a different State a gun and transports that gun or receives that gun in his State of residence has violated the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3). That situation was not specifically addressed by ATF.

Sure it is, because after they said:

A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

And I asked for clarification:

Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

And they replied:

As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

How could someone possible be able to borrow and travel with a firearm over state lines, yet be unable to go home with it?....

Since you didn't specifically ask the question you can't assume that ATF understood it the way you intended. Again you're reading things into the ATF response that aren't there.

And who is the "they" responding? A clerk who doesn't know much more than you do, or a senior lawyer in the legal division? Based on normal agency practices in responding to routine email inquiries, almost certainly the former. And he's not doing any legal analysis. He can't. He's repeating canned responses.

....And that's after I and specifically referenced 922(a)(3) when my question included:

I've been told that most of that is illegal due to 18 USC 922(a)(3) preventing travel with firearms, since 18 USC 922(a)(3) has no loan provision....

Which means what, exactly? How is anyone supposed to understand exactly what the context for the question is and exactly what the question is? You seriously expect a government agency clerk to understand what you're asking?

You asked sloppy and vague questions, and you got sloppy and vague answers. And now you want to interpret the ATF answers to support your preconceived notions.

The reality is that you lack the knowledge and skills needed to approach an administrative agency to get any worthwhile legal clarification on matters beyond the most superficial issues. On the other hand, lawyers with any kind of administrative practice to that sort of thing regularly.

When we do it, we address the legal division of the agency or follow whatever procedures the agency has in place for such requests. We lay a detailed and precise factual foundation, leaving and expecting nothing to be assumed. We frame our questions narrowly and precisely.

Basically, you've wasted your time, and now you're wasting our time.

 

[RX-79G]

Way to go, Frank. You've managed to make it sound like your interpretation of the law is more accurate than the Federal Agency that governs it.


Here's what you are saying is vague:

Q: Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

A: As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.

 

[danez71]

Originally Posted by Frank
And ATF appears to have completely ignored the storage question.

RX-79G said:

No, they said:

Originally Posted by BATF
ATF does not regulate nor have jurisdiction over you leaving them at a friend’s house or storage locker nor are there any laws pertaining to time of storage before losing ownership.

Franks right. They punted on the storage question and I'll add that your question isn't worded to be answered in a relevant manner.

You asked about storage and ownership.

Re-read what the BTAF replied.

Note that losing ownership is different than "possession". And its "possession" that is important.

You asked about ownership and storage. They answered. But ownership isn't really relevant to possession so its not relevant to the context of what you said before, or now.



Next up......

Originally Posted by Frank
Thus a person who borrows from someone (not an FFL) who is a resident of a different State a gun and transports that gun or receives that gun in his State of residence has violated the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3). That situation was not specifically addressed by ATF

.

RX-97G said

Sure it is, because after they said:

Originally Posted by BATF
A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

RX-97G said:

And I asked for clarification:

Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

And they replied:

BTAF replied

Quote:

As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms

Said by RX-97G

How could someone possible be able to borrow and travel with a firearm over state lines, yet be unable to go home with it?

Because your changing the context from your original statement to this one.


Your original context was that you could go to your friends state, borrow his gun, and return to your home state with the gun under the guise of it being borrowed for sporting purposes.... and that there is nothing against that.





Said by Frank:

Often these email queries answered by clerks who rely on can responses. Certainly these response appear to be little more than repetitions of ATF responses from its various on-line FAQs.

This is very relevant and its been noted by many that the quality of answers, when asked this way, can be iffy and misleading. My own personal experience is the same.






RX-7G, it does appear, IMO, you're reading and asking in effort to come to the conclusion you want.

IMO, you're looking to get around that law rather than follow it and interpreting whats said to fit a changing context.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Way to go, Frank. You've managed to make it sound like your interpretation of the law is more accurate than the Federal Agency that governs it....

Actually, with regard to issues not directly addressed in the canned responses, my interpretation probably is more accurate than that of some ATF clerk who is not a lawyer.

...Here's what you are saying is vague:

Q: Can someone in possession of a loaned firearm travel with it over state lines?

A: As long as the person is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms.

1. Yes, it's vague insofar as it doesn't explicitly address the core issue: someone borrowing a gun in some State and returning with it to his State of residence.
   
   
2. In any case, with regard to someone borrowing a gun in some State and returning with it to his State of residence, the borrow is prohibited from receiving the gun in his State of residence. See 18 USC 922(a)(3) provides (emphasis added):

   18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
   
   (a) It shall be unlawful—
   ...
   
   

   (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
   
   

   (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
   
   (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
   
   (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

   
   Thus a person who borrows from someone (not an FFL) who is a resident of a different State a gun and transports that gun or receives that gun in his State of residence has violated the plain language of 18 USC 922(a)(3).

 

[barnbwt]

A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

LOL @ 'sporting purposes,' I'm pretty sure the ATF has no say at all in what lawful activity you loan or borrow a firearm for. (one of many mistakes, misstatements, or misleading passages if we examine this enough, I'm sure; again, this is why these letters are worthless, because every response will be slightly different and is only one person's opinion about one other person's question)

You've managed to make it sound like your interpretation of the law is more accurate than the Federal Agency that governs it.

It probably is; or do you really think the responding agent charged many hours of research time to actually pore over laws & regulations to provide a quality, accurate, and thorough opinion for your benefit? Or just a rough gist of the practical effect of their enforcement practices?

Basically, you've wasted your time, and now you're wasting our time.

Hey, don't blame him for the ATF's wasting of all our time, Frank. A Q&A could answer basic NFA/GCA questions like these immediately, but I'll bet you won't find it in a prominent place on their homepage (for that matter, why don't they post responses like this online in a searchable format, so someone else won't feel the need to ask it again). We all know they are perfectly capable of giving accurate, clear explanations, like they do when arguing before a court; they just choose not to unless absolutely necessary in order to maintain/expand as much enforcement authority as possible.

TCB

 

[RX-79G]

Since I specifically asked about the impact of 922(a)(3) on interstate loans, that objection doesn't make sense. Unless, of course, Frank Ettin knows better than the Firearms Industry Policy Branch of the ATF.


What I think is really wild that you think there is a difference between going across a state line and going back to your home state.

What are you saying? The guy with the loaned gun can go anywhere with it except home?

 

[RX-79G]

It probably is; or do you really think the responding agent charged many hours of research time to actually pore over laws & regulations to provide a quality, accurate, and thorough opinion for your benefit? Or just a rough gist of the practical effect of their enforcement practices?

The problem with doubting the ATF's interpretation is that the ATF is the only organization that matters.

It's like disagreeing with someone about how their name is pronounced.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Since I specifically asked about the impact of 922(a)(3) on interstate loans, that objection doesn't make sense....

Phooey! You did not specifically ask. You made a vague, passing reference to the statute.

....What I think is really wild that you think there is a difference between going across a state line and going back to your home state....

That's one problem. The result required by the plain language of the statutes doesn't make sense to you. So you simply refuse to accept what the statutes actually say.

Another problem is that you ignore the fact that under the GCA one's State of residence is significant.

The problem with doubting the ATF's interpretation is that the ATF is the only organization that matters....

No, what actually ultimately matters is how a federal court is likely to see things.

...It's like disagreeing with someone about how their name is pronounced.

Again no. The guy who's been answering you is not a senior ATF official who has authority to make legal interpretations in the name of and binding on the agency. He's a lower level functionary whose authority it limited to answering public questions as best he can and based on certain limited and stock responses. If the ATF decides he was wrong, the ATF will not be held to his responses.

 

[RX-79G]

Phooey! You did not specifically ask. You made a vague, passing reference to the statute.



That's one problem. The result required by the plain language of the statutes doesn't make sense to you. So you simply refuse to accept what the statutes actually say.

Another problem is that you ignore the fact that under the GCA one's State of residence is significant.

No, what actually ultimately matters is how a federal court is likely to see things.

Again no. The guy who's been answering you is not a senior ATF official who has authority to make legal interpretations in the name of and binding on the agency. He's a lower level functionary whose authority it limited to answering public questions as best he can and based on certain limited and stock responses. If the ATF decides he was wrong, the ATF will not be held to his responses.

A "senior ATF official" doesn't investigate acts of interstate firearms loaning. That happens at or below the level of the person who was answering my emails.


Frank, I'll just say it. You are a really insulting, opinionated guy that appears to go to any length to not appear incorrect. I followed your suggestion to ask the ATF, and you have excuse after excuse why the ATF Policy Branch can't read, understand and answer a question.


That's completely aside from your constant put downs of my intelligence. I went to Northwestern, have a 140 IQ, was a Navy Command Legal Officer and you are pretty much the only person I've ever encountered that attempts to win arguments with me by making it sound like I'm a confused fool.


You must be really valuable as a legal person to the forum, considering how insulting you are to the members.

I would hope that most people aren't so caught up in themselves to read what the ATF wrote me and make up their own mind whether they need a real estate lawyer to understand what the ATF says about loans, storage and moving over state lines.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank, I'll just say it. You are a really insulting, opinionated guy that appears to go to any length to not appear incorrect. I followed your suggestion to ask the ATF, and you have excuse after excuse why the ATF Policy Branch can't read, understand and answer a question...

You and I have gone around and around on this multiple times, and I stand by my responses. I've had long experience dealing with administrative agencies in general (although not necessarily ATF). I know how to get definitive, binding legal opinions from agencies, and I know the limitations of what are in effect customer service agents with regard to providing information to the public.

...That's completely aside from your constant put downs of my intelligence. I went to Northwestern, have a 140 IQ, was a Navy Command Legal Officer and you are pretty much the only person I've ever encountered that attempts to win arguments with me by making it sound like I'm a confused fool....

Be that as it may, I'll match you as far as intelligence goes. And furthermore, I did successfully practice law in the private sector for 30+ years. I do know what I'm talking about, even though you choose to assume that I don't. I know how to do the research, and I know how to read statutes, and I made my living doing this sort of stuff for clients who expected, and got, results.