Bayard SxS

[MachIVshooter]

So, I've just come into possession of a Bayard SxS exposed hammer 12 gauge, and I'm trying to figure out if it can handle smokeless powder shells. The barrels are marked "peiper breech" on the right, "twist finish Belgium" on the left and "Patent 488366 decb 20 1892" on the center rib. Underneath is "choke 18.0 on one tube and 18.3 on the other.

Receiver is simply marked "Bayard Arms co"

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[oneounceload]

Twist barrels were designed for low-pressure black powder loads. While many will say Never, there are many folks who shoot those guns (AFTER they have been thoroughly checked by a knowledgeable gunsmith). There are low-pressure smokeless loads available from several sources and you can always load your own in brass shotshells. The difficulty is in trying to determine the remaining strength in the barrels as BP is corrosive and twist barrels do not have the strength of modern ones.

Are you positive it says choke for those numbers? Many times, those guns had the BORE diameters marked in mm that way.

Henri Pieper was the maker of Bayard shotguns

From Cheaper Than Dirt:

Bayard shotguns were made in Belgium by Henri Pieper. BAYARD was a trade name of Henri Pieper, whose company was founded in 1859. In 1894 the Anciens Etablissements Pieper, in South America. aquired the rights to manufacture the shotguns.

 

[SWAMPUS]

Bayard Bore

Belgian chokes of that era go from 18.5-open to 18.0 full.You've got full/mod.Have a smith check it out,but I'd be leery of firing it.Maybe you could hand load some BP shells.Be a hoot!

 

[gunut]

with the barrels saying twist finish...they might just have a spiral pattern printed on fluid steel barrels....check closely...a picture of the barrel proof marks should tell if they were nitro proofed...

 

[MachIVshooter]

OK, finally got home to snap some photo's.

I'm having trouble finding any good info on this piece, so hopefully one of you shotgun experts here can make more sense of this than I can.

The gun seems to have 2-3/4" chambers, as the shells will insert and extract easily, but 3" shells go in/extract hard, and have obvious contact marks the last 1/4".

Also, I can't see anything that would indicate a manufacture date. Any ideas?











Also, just curious, but aside from magnafluxing, how would a good smith determine the integrity of the steel itself, sans actual fractures? Ultrasound? Electron bombardment?

 

[oneounceload]

The gun seems to have 2-3/4" chambers, as the shells will insert and extract easily, but 3" shells go in/extract hard, and have obvious contact marks the last 1/4".

2-3/4" shells WILL go into a 2-1/2" gun - the length is for a FIRED shell - you really don't want to do that and shoot it. IF it passes inspection by a qualified smith, low pressure loads are the way to go.

 

[PTK]

That gun doesn't take 2-3/4 shells, I'd wager. If I were still in CO, I'd be happy to cast the chambers and take a look...

I may be in CO next month, though - send me a PM and we can figure that out.

EDIT: Are there proofmarks on the action? From what I see on the barrels, they were proved in Belgium, but so far it looks very much like they are NOT nitro-proved. If there are any other proofmarks, it is probably marked on the portion perpendicular to the breechface (the proper name escapes me). Pictures would help.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Sorry, spaced that one



From what I can find, there is nothing indicating a nitro proof. On the same note, I can find no indication on the gun or in research as to whether this is a twist steel barrel, or a drawn barrel that was, as written on the barrel, "twist finish". And from what I have read, the period this shotgun was made in, it could certainly be either.

Think I'll just order up some 2.5" BP loads and strap the thing in my lead sled with a 20' string and see what happens.

 

[PTK]

Not nitro prooved, nope. I'd think that particular barrel is twist steel.

Also, please don't test it like that - you won't get any useful results either way. It holds, great, maybe the next time you fire it, it explodes and kills you.

It doesn't hold, and you now have one less shotgun.

 

[RandKL]

A lot of proofmarks. A couple of them, I can't quite make out in your pics.

The one that matters to you is the diamond with the 12C in it. That's a blackpowder proof for a 12 gauge needless to say. You don't have any smokeless proofs therefor.... That diamond mark also went into effect in 1898 thus your gun dates to at least that year. At that date, 2 3/4" shells didn't exist so yours is either 2 1/2" or 2 5/8".

The word "choke" isn't a part of the 18.0/18.3 mark itself. "Choke" is stamped by itself as a mark that there *is* a choke and ball ammo/slugs are NOT safe. Prior to 1897, the words "non pour ball" would have been stamped on it but in 1898, again, that was changed to just "choke". The numbers are as Swampus said above and those are bore sizes.

You've got the usual assortment of proofs other than those....and I don't see a date mark of any kind.

In your fifth pic above, the horizontal barrels aiming left, there's a mark northwest of the 12C mark. It appears to be an "R". There's also a mark in the same place on the top barrel under the word "choke", as well. Can you get a pic of those two marks?

rich

 

[MachIVshooter]

Thanks much, guys. Very helpful info from all of you. I'll call a couple of local smiths today and see if any of them are familiar with testing these critters. If it passes, cool, and I'll prolly start handloading with all brass shells and < 3 dram, one ounce or lighter loads. If it fails the inspection, I have a cool $140 wall hanger to go with my great, great granddad's .36 cal flintlock.

Thanks again!

Also, I'll just run this by you guys first, but I've always been pretty good at fabrication, and have all manner of lathe, mill, mig, tig, torch, etc., and it has occured to me that there's no reason the receiver couldn't handle modern ammo if the barrels are up to it. Sooooo.....my other idea is to get a pair of 12 gauge, 3" barrels for the NEF shotguns (18" cyl bore), braze or spot-tig them to a center rib (perhaps even band them), and then mill a block of steel to fit the Bayard and so attach the barrels. After all, what I really want is a twin hammer coach gun that is NOT China-made like the brand new Cimarron I just traded off for that reason. I just can't afford the $1k CZ right now.

 

[PTK]

You can, however, afford buying a used 1920s or 1930s USA made gun, can you not? Two NEF barrels, about $60 each, plus TIG welding them together, plus regulating, plus milling the block, plus fitting everything, OR, just spend $2-400 on an old working double gun.

I'll ask around, people I know back in CO had that kind of thing laying around.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You can, however, afford buying a used 1920s or 1930s USA made gun, can you not?

If only I could find one. U.S. made exposed hammer doubles seem to be exceedingly rare.

But I'm a born tinkerer anyway, so if I have to make a barrel set, it'd be a fun and rewarding project for the new year