shotgunjoel
Member
If you made a full auto bb gun would it be legal? When would it be considered a firearm? Do you need gun powder or some other chemical propellant to make it a firearm?
BB Gun Machine gun
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shotgunjoel
Member
Oh and btw I know that like airsoft guns can be full auto, but they are considered toys, that's why they have the orange tips.
armoredman
Member
There was a BB subgun years ago, 3000 BB perminute, worked off a one pound compressed air can. This was before the era of paintball, no idea what happened to it.
Laws vary, check your area, but the Feds have no interest, not considered a firearm.
Laws vary, check your area, but the Feds have no interest, not considered a firearm.
Depends on your local laws, federally it's not an issue.
The Drozd is available. While it's not full-auto, it is 3 & 6 round burst capable. It's also my understanding that you can alter the internal circuitry to get full-auto if that's what you really NEED.
The Drozd is available. While it's not full-auto, it is 3 & 6 round burst capable. It's also my understanding that you can alter the internal circuitry to get full-auto if that's what you really NEED.
WardenWolf
member
It's a lot easier to quickly feed dense round projectiles than it is to feed a cartridge. Higher reliability and speeds are available with much simpler mechanisms.
However, wantonly dumping that many BBs out could possibly be considered littering. Or endangering wildlife since they tend to be eaten. So even while it may not specifically violate any local laws, and you may otherwise be considered legal, you may still be cited if a law enforcement officer has a bug up his butt.
However, wantonly dumping that many BBs out could possibly be considered littering. Or endangering wildlife since they tend to be eaten. So even while it may not specifically violate any local laws, and you may otherwise be considered legal, you may still be cited if a law enforcement officer has a bug up his butt.
dmazur
Member
Potato guns
There is some concern about definitions, as there are applications for launching projectiles where you do not want the device considered a "weapon".
Specifically, amateur radio operators string antennas between trees for emergency operations / contests and this is often done in state parks or other areas where weapons are prohibited. Traditional methods of doing this included the use of slingshots and bows/arrows, both of which are usually classified by LEO's as weapons.
Some enterprising folks have figured out how to make a PVC tennis-ball launcher, which can trail kite line and be used to string an antenna. This compressed-air powered device is not a weapon, in the traditional sense.
The designers wrote the BATF about this and received a reply that said that PVC pipe devices, including potato guns powered by hairspray, were not going to be considered firearms as long as they were used for recreational purposes and not used as weapons.
So, apparently there is some leniency for "chemical propellant" in the definition of a firearm.
However, the first time someone holds up a bank with a potato gun, this ruling may change.
There is some concern about definitions, as there are applications for launching projectiles where you do not want the device considered a "weapon".
Specifically, amateur radio operators string antennas between trees for emergency operations / contests and this is often done in state parks or other areas where weapons are prohibited. Traditional methods of doing this included the use of slingshots and bows/arrows, both of which are usually classified by LEO's as weapons.
Some enterprising folks have figured out how to make a PVC tennis-ball launcher, which can trail kite line and be used to string an antenna. This compressed-air powered device is not a weapon, in the traditional sense.
The designers wrote the BATF about this and received a reply that said that PVC pipe devices, including potato guns powered by hairspray, were not going to be considered firearms as long as they were used for recreational purposes and not used as weapons.
So, apparently there is some leniency for "chemical propellant" in the definition of a firearm.
However, the first time someone holds up a bank with a potato gun, this ruling may change.
MatthewVanitas
Member
Right, but the issue with potato guns is that they are powered by combustion, so there is some ability to make the word "firearm" stick.
So far as BB guns, here's a pic from a "big bore airgun" shoot in TX. This fellow is shooting a select-fire 9mm subgun, but it's legal since it's air-powered.
http://www.pyramydair.com/big-bore-shoot-2008.shtml
Perfectly legal at the federal level. Air powered guns are not firearms. Even muzzle loaders are not firearms.
They even sell neat looking miniguns that shoot bbs. They cost several thousand dollars though.
Commercialy there is the Drozd as mentioned, and it can be modified for full auto. There is also others.
Compressed air actualy works better than CO2 if you want to retain power, but for far fewer shots since it will not liquify in this application. CO2 chills the container every time it releases some gas. Releasing rapid CO2 causes the container to decrease in temperature, down to the point of dry ice. The lower the temperature the lower the pressure propelling the projectile. Meaning every shot gives lower velocity until you are practicly just wasting and venting your CO2.
So full auto CO2 is not very efficient or effective.
Since CO2 offers the most shots for a given size tank because it can liquify at reasonable pressures, and consistant pressure if it warms between shots it is favored for airguns.
Full auto and CO2 should not be combined because of the properties of CO2.
Recklessly using anything will get you into trouble. Destroying property etc will still cause trouble regardless of the item.
Actions with the item could cause trouble, but the item itself is perfectly fine.
They even sell neat looking miniguns that shoot bbs. They cost several thousand dollars though.
Commercialy there is the Drozd as mentioned, and it can be modified for full auto. There is also others.
Compressed air actualy works better than CO2 if you want to retain power, but for far fewer shots since it will not liquify in this application. CO2 chills the container every time it releases some gas. Releasing rapid CO2 causes the container to decrease in temperature, down to the point of dry ice. The lower the temperature the lower the pressure propelling the projectile. Meaning every shot gives lower velocity until you are practicly just wasting and venting your CO2.
So full auto CO2 is not very efficient or effective.
Since CO2 offers the most shots for a given size tank because it can liquify at reasonable pressures, and consistant pressure if it warms between shots it is favored for airguns.
Full auto and CO2 should not be combined because of the properties of CO2.
Recklessly using anything will get you into trouble. Destroying property etc will still cause trouble regardless of the item.
Actions with the item could cause trouble, but the item itself is perfectly fine.
SMMAssociates
Member
Can't remember where or when, but I got to play with one at some kind of shooting gallery in an amusement area - maybe the Cedar Point Marina?
Hilarious....
I think it was built to recycle the BB's, too....
No idea how it worked, though. WTH, I was 12....
Regards,
Hilarious....
I think it was built to recycle the BB's, too....
No idea how it worked, though. WTH, I was 12....
Regards,
MedWheeler
Member
Back in the eighties, they were sold as easily as any other airguns. They were powered by R-12 refrigerant (back when that was commonly available, and cheap!)
theotherwaldo
Member
Dad got me a little BB gatling gun when I was six. Very low powered, it just sprayed BBs when you turned the crank.
I'll bet he regretted that gift
I'll bet he regretted that gift
ThrottleJockey
member
"Dad got me a little BB gatling gun when I was six. Very low powered, it just sprayed BBs when you turned the crank."
I bet that would fetch a pretty penny from a collector today!
I bet that would fetch a pretty penny from a collector today!
WardenWolf
member
They had a full auto BB gun shooting gallery at the Arizona state fair, too. I remember they loaded it with a tube that contained 100 BBs. The whole purpose of making it full auto was to make you use up your BB's faster and get another customer on the line, versus more traditional shooting galleries where a person takes careful shots individually and can be there for several minutes.
SMMAssociates
Member
Mike:
The one I shot was fed by a clear plastic tube - containing the BB's and probably an air supply, too. I don't remember the "form" of the gun itself, but it was tied down to something, so all you could do was traverse it horizontally, and through a few degrees of elevation.
Really a hoot, though, but I couldn't beg enough quarters (from dad, I think) to get too much time on it. Funny - I remember the tube feed, the plastic box the whole thing was installed in, etc., but not where, or what the gun looked like....
'Bout the same time, somebody gave me (or one of my cousins) a "shooting gallery" toy, consisting of a spring powered (dropping the hammer propelled the ball) pistol, and some spinners, all in a plastic case about the size of a shoebox. Balls were recycled, and you couldn't take the pistol out of the box. Or so they believed.... Range was zilch, though, so it really didn't matter....
I had more fun building fortresses with little plastic blocks, and then using a miniature cannon - also spring powered - to blow them apart with a projectile that was about an inch long and a quarter-inch in diameter. No weight to it, but it made a mess out of the styrene blocks. If things were going too slow, I had a little missile launcher on a truck thing that launched a relative large rocket with a cap at the tip. (The projectile was about the size of a "C" battery.) You can bet I'd point that thing at the brick fortresses....
I wonder if you can even get toys like that today....
Regards,
The one I shot was fed by a clear plastic tube - containing the BB's and probably an air supply, too. I don't remember the "form" of the gun itself, but it was tied down to something, so all you could do was traverse it horizontally, and through a few degrees of elevation.
Really a hoot, though, but I couldn't beg enough quarters (from dad, I think) to get too much time on it. Funny - I remember the tube feed, the plastic box the whole thing was installed in, etc., but not where, or what the gun looked like....
'Bout the same time, somebody gave me (or one of my cousins) a "shooting gallery" toy, consisting of a spring powered (dropping the hammer propelled the ball) pistol, and some spinners, all in a plastic case about the size of a shoebox. Balls were recycled, and you couldn't take the pistol out of the box. Or so they believed....
Range was zilch, though, so it really didn't matter....I had more fun building fortresses with little plastic blocks, and then using a miniature cannon - also spring powered - to blow them apart with a projectile that was about an inch long and a quarter-inch in diameter. No weight to it, but it made a mess out of the styrene blocks. If things were going too slow, I had a little missile launcher on a truck thing that launched a relative large rocket with a cap at the tip. (The projectile was about the size of a "C" battery.) You can bet I'd point that thing at the brick fortresses....
I wonder if you can even get toys like that today....
Regards,
coosbaycreep
Member
When I was a kid the local town festival would sometimes have a full auto BB gun gallery too. They were M-16 replicas, and to win a prize, you had to shoot out all the black portion of a star on a paper target.
I had a baikal drozd for awhile. I had the low cap one that only held 30 BBs and took a regular CO2 cartridge. Lots of fun, but not considering how long it took to load it, and how fast it goes through
CO2.
It was really loud too, and with a fresh CO2 cartridge, it could probably be mistaken for a real machine gun inside your garage by less than thrilled neighbors. That's one of the main reasons I got rid of it.
I had a baikal drozd for awhile. I had the low cap one that only held 30 BBs and took a regular CO2 cartridge. Lots of fun, but not considering how long it took to load it, and how fast it goes through
CO2.
It was really loud too, and with a fresh CO2 cartridge, it could probably be mistaken for a real machine gun inside your garage by less than thrilled neighbors. That's one of the main reasons I got rid of it.
barnetmill
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While air, gas, and spring powered guns are not considered firearms, the ATF does generally outlaw the attachment silencers to these guns. There is at least one gun on the market that has avoided this restriction. I think the ATF arguement is that if it can taken from the air gun and put on a firearm than it is a silencer. Even if the first shot destroys it, but if the sound is reduced by one decibel it is an illegal silencer.
The resoning is flawed because I am sure that some sort of small engine muffler could be applied to a firearm thereby reducing sound by one decibel. Make a good court case if someone wanted to challenge the ATF rulings.
The resoning is flawed because I am sure that some sort of small engine muffler could be applied to a firearm thereby reducing sound by one decibel. Make a good court case if someone wanted to challenge the ATF rulings.
Good variety of compressed gas Full Auto out there:
Some have referenced the LARK M19 which used freon cans or a small compressor as the power source. late 70s/early 80s mfg. Cheap as hell construction, not a very good design at all
MacGlashan was a WWII aircraft 1919 Browning training gun...very neat and quality piece.
Carnival Thompsons: several mfgs, neat but over rated and VERY expensive
Drozd...Russian mfg and has a serious cult following with airsmiths now building straight full auto control boards, custom valves, barrels, folding stocks ect. If you change it over to HPA with a new valve and longer barrel its rather easy to break 900FPS
the pic of the cat at the big bore airgun shoot shows a Casselman. I own a 9mm version, slick piece of hardware but exceedingly rare
Also working on a RAP4 paintball gun conversion to 9mm using a Career 9mm barrel and the RAP .177 nylon cases. Should be able to run in the 800FPS range on HPA at 3000psi
understand none of this comes cheap tho
if anyone wants some websites or other info post and I will be pleased to post up some relevant resources
Some have referenced the LARK M19 which used freon cans or a small compressor as the power source. late 70s/early 80s mfg. Cheap as hell construction, not a very good design at all
MacGlashan was a WWII aircraft 1919 Browning training gun...very neat and quality piece.
Carnival Thompsons: several mfgs, neat but over rated and VERY expensive
Drozd...Russian mfg and has a serious cult following with airsmiths now building straight full auto control boards, custom valves, barrels, folding stocks ect. If you change it over to HPA with a new valve and longer barrel its rather easy to break 900FPS
the pic of the cat at the big bore airgun shoot shows a Casselman. I own a 9mm version, slick piece of hardware but exceedingly rare
Also working on a RAP4 paintball gun conversion to 9mm using a Career 9mm barrel and the RAP .177 nylon cases. Should be able to run in the 800FPS range on HPA at 3000psi
understand none of this comes cheap tho
if anyone wants some websites or other info post and I will be pleased to post up some relevant resources
Which is totaly illogical to anyone with any firearm understanding of muzzle blast.
Take for example this chart measuring the decibels of the same load in different regular smoothbore barrels (a hollow tube) of 12 gauge shotguns:
12 Gauge
28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 " barrel 161.50dB
Notice that the 28" barrel is almost 5 decibels quiter than the 26" barrel. 2" of barrel difference creating 4.60 decibels of difference. You better believe 1" of barrel difference would be more than 1 decibel different in sound.
In fact there is a curve based on the powder burn rate and pressure of different calibers where a single inch of barrel will make a much larger difference than others. A single inch could allow the gas to reach the air when it is at a much lower pressure resulting in far less noise with nothing more than a hollow tube.
That means even just a barrel extension would qualify as an illegal silencer if the ATF said so based on the 1 decibel thing.
Those fake silencers just made for looks that consist of nothing but a hollow tube? Yep that increase in barrel length will make them at least 1 decibel quiter as well. Meaning those are illegal silencers as well.
Pretty illogical and foolish ruling. The type of ruling that would only be made by someone looking to have absolute total control and the discretion to choose to prosecute anything and everything.
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Crunker1337
Member
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To the best of my knowledge, there are no federal laws against f.a BB guns. The Drozd is a good example, but so is this: http://www.fullyautomaticairgun.com/
Check your state laws.
Check your state laws.
ScottsGT
Member
Check this one out. $1500.00, airsoft or aluminum 6mm bb's
http://www.pursuitsautomaticweapons.com/main.html
The show on History Channel said that they are not available to the public, but nothing on the website about it.
http://www.pursuitsautomaticweapons.com/main.html
The show on History Channel said that they are not available to the public, but nothing on the website about it.
chris in va
Member
Depends on the state.
They are in Virginia. Ex-friend of mine's kid was waving an airsoft gun around in his neighborhood, and shot the side of a house with it. Homeowner found the pellets, called the cops. Kid got arrested for "brandishing a firearm" in the police report and had to do community service.
A few years ago I was about to take my kid out to a pond for some pellet gun shooting, but I called the county police first just to be sure. He said to be 'legal' I'd have to shoot on at least 5 acres of land, and yes...the pellet gun was technically a firearm even though there's no NICS check with it.
You point one at someone, they can have you on brandishing charges.
A silencer, in and of itself, is an NFA item regardless of what someone uses it for. Even if all you do is use it for a doorstop it's still an NFA item. Given that is what the law actually says, there's no need to twist or argue anything.
BB guns are BB guns, regardless of whether or not they are full auto. Silencers are a touchy issue, and the ATF offers no clear cut answer on replicas for paintball/airsoft/pellet rifles etc. The most mainstream application being the Gamo Whisper, but in that case the suppressor is permenantly affixed.
ThrottleJockey
member
"Air powered guns are not firearms. Even muzzle loaders are not firearms."
Well, I am aware of at least one city with an ordinance making anything with a projectile a firearm. Like a slingshot, a GI Joe toy, a suction cup bow and arrow......EVEN NERF!!!
Well, I am aware of at least one city with an ordinance making anything with a projectile a firearm. Like a slingshot, a GI Joe toy, a suction cup bow and arrow......EVEN NERF!!!
WardenWolf
member
The ATF ruled that paintball silencers are considered firearm silencers, under the argument that the entire .68 caliber barrel, silencer and all, could be used as an attachment for a real firearm barrel and actually reduce its report. They ran tests and found that it actually was capable of reducing the sound somewhat.
However, all the airsoft silencers I've seen are actually dummy silencers. They're just a shroud that makes your gun look cool. These would also be illegal if they actually functioned, though. Because of this, on a paintball forum I visit, all "silencers" are considered to be functional unless stated otherwise or unless it has a visible name or logo from a company that produces dummies. If a person posts a picture of a paintball gun with a silencer or tries to sell one, they better say it's fake or they're getting suspended. And going "Fake ;-) silencer" results in an automatic suspension as well.
Note: I do not advocate airsoft or many of the things people practice while playing it. In fact, I am in favor of banning or severely restricting it due to a culture of unsafe behavior that extends to most commercial fields. I recognize it has some very good, beneficial parts, but I also do not like seeing people get hurt because basic safety is not taught or enforced. It teaches unsafe handling practices with realistic firearms, instead of being used for its potential good to teach proper safety practices. I am pro-gun, but anti-airsoft, because guns should not be treated like toys, and kids should not be playing with pellet guns that can reach potentially lethal velocities with inadequate safety gear.
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