BBC: The Wild West-Custers Last Stand bp weapons

[elhombreconnonombre]

Interesting program, shows Custer and his Men equipped with Trapdoor Springfields, SAAs; Indians equipped with Sharps, Winchester lever rifles, and the occasional six shooter, Remington or Colt.
I have come across several accts. that Custer ordered each trooper to carry 100 rounds for carbine and 25 rounds for pistol for personal use with any additional ammo loaded on the pack train, which seem to always lag behind. Question: Did Custer's command on Last Stand Hill run out of ammo before they were overrun, perhaps due to the pack train not being there.

 

[Tommygunn]

No one really knows exactly what happened to Custer from the time he sent a messenger to Benteen's division telling them to "bring packs" quickly. By "packs" it would have been understood that did mean ammunition, but Custer was anticipating the need and thus preparing for what he knew was going to be a hard fight. Custer had 5 detachments under his command, five troops, those being Companies C, E, F, L, and I. The rest were under Major Reno & Capt. Benteen.
Custer would never receive those packs he'd requested of Benteen. We KNOW Benteen got the note because the note actually still exists; Benteen decided he could not make it to Custer, and took up with Reno's men on what is called "Reno's Hill."
The problem Custer faced was trying to locate a spot on the Little Bighorn River to cross. It is unclear whether he succeeded but if he did, only a small number of men got across before they were routed back. It is interesting to note Indian accounts of this part of the battle. One might think that Custer would be easy to identify ... but apprently he was not the only person in the 7th given to flamboyant outfits, and there were others with yellow hair. Custer's normally long hair had been trimmed prior to leaving Fort Lincoln.
In my opinion I don't think that those five companies ran out of ammunition. I don't think that was their big problem. The Indians had reacted is such a powerful and aggressive fashion (very very surprising) to the attack on their village, and Custer's men were unusually poorly prepared, hot, tired, and the Indians very quickly won an advantage and routed the five companies up along Battle Ridge, that I think it was Crazy Horse's and Gall's quick action, and aggressiveness that carried the day.
Some troopers may very well have run out of ammo as they were separated from the troops, especially if they were caught in the open and individually surrounded. Troops were told to save the last bullet for themselves.
It is IIRC a matter of record a couple of troopers were caught alive and were quickly returned to the Indian encampment -- where they found out pretty quickly just why they'd been told by superiors to save that last bullet .......

Now, what I've written above constitutes my opinion, based on what I've read. As I said, no one really knows. Of course the Indians did know, and yes they were asked, and many gave good accounts of what happened. But that doesn't mean they knew exactly who Custer was, or necessarily had a good view of the big picture through the "fog of war." It's all basically historical reconstruction.

 

[PRM]

Troops were told to save the last bullet for themselves - Tommygunn

I've seen this quoted, and it seems often enough that a lot of folks take it as fact. Just curious, do you have any links or source material from the era that state this? Be interesting to know if this was actual advice given or the creation of the dime novel writers of the late 1800s.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I have heard the "tale" from various writers/historians based on Indian accounts that perhaps Custer was mortally wounded in the chest in an effort to ford the river and that in the subsequent confusion regrouped and moved Custer and the troop to the hill to defend themselves from the Indians who were now zeroing in on their position and on the offensive. Quien sabe??

 

[BHP FAN]

God Bless Turner Kirkland, as well!

 

[Crawdad1]

I've also read where the Tribes were indifferently armed, with percussion, flintlock, (even matchlock?) muzzleloading rifles and pistols which isn't unusual in 1876 as a lot of people had muzzleloaders. But as far as the breechloaders were concerned how did these tribes acquire the needed ammunition in quantity in order to keep them operating?

Basically what I'm asking is I never thought it was the arms that the Indians were carrying that destroyed Reno and Custer that day but their aggressive flanking movements and their numbers.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I read the Indian's account of the battle. They knew it was the US Cavalry attacking them, but didn't know who led them. According to the Indians, Custer died leading the charge across the river early in the battle. The impetus of the attack died with Custer. His men retrieved his body and began retreating.

 

[Hellgate]

The indians traded amongst themselves by getting ammunition from "friendly" (to whites) indians like the Shoshonis (I think) who had treaties or at least were not considered at war or a threat to settlement at the time. The friendlies would be allowed to get rifle ammo for hunting purposes and then trade it to the "hostiles" behind the white man's back.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Crawdaddie
You are correct. Also, remember that many of the bodies of Custer's troopers were riddled with multiple mortal arrow wounds. So between arrows and the Indians arms, whether ancient or contemporary to that period, and perhaps as many as 2000 Indian warriors picking off the troopers one by one from the cover of the various draws and coulees doomed those 5 companies.

 

[Crawdad1]

I agree Elhombre, their stash of weapons was probably a logistical nightmare for whichever Chief was in charge of quartermaster duties.

Hellgate, Their circular route to get cartridges must have made the cartridges almost as valuable as the firearm itself.

 

[Hellgate]

A lot of trading was done with tribes in Oregon and Southern Idaho and sent up north & east to Montana tribes.

 

[Crawdad1]

As Elhombre has mentioned I still would like to read a good book on how available was ammunition whether cartridge or otherwise, in the old west. The shear vastness of empty land even today must have been a nightmare for travelers back then to supply themselves with enough ammunition. But, did they really need to shoot that much out there?

 

[rodwha]

And back in times such as that I can see how BP guns might be slightly better in that when supplies are getting low you can cut back on the powder charge a bit and move from conicals to balls. The powder would work with everyone's muzzleloader instead of certain cartridges for certain calibers.

With percussions caps often too hard to get I've been thinking I need a couple of flintlocks now, despite that BP has grown the interest.

I also quit buying a tin or three of caps at a time...

 

[Sunray]

"...troopers were riddled with multiple mortal arrow wounds..." A lot of which had to do with Indian beliefs about the after life. They thought you lived/appeared there just like you left here.
"...perhaps as many as 2000 Indian warriors..." More like 4 to 6 thousand.
One of the better History Channel programs, I think it was, did a real archeological study of the battle site. Found all kinds of spent bullets that proved what kind of firearms the Indians had. A lot of .52's, as I recall.

 

[Leanwolf]

Tommygunn - "Troops were told to save the last bullet for themselves - "

PRM - "I've seen this quoted, and it seems often enough that a lot of folks take it as fact. Just curious, do you have any links or source material from the era that state this? Be interesting to know if this was actual advice given or the creation of the dime novel writers of the late 1800s."

Regarding above, and to include some info on the fight by Custer and his troops at the Little Big Horn River, or as the Sioux called it, the "Greasy Grass River," there is a book out there that if you can find it, is chock full of info on that battle, plus the battles of U.S. soldiers against other tribes of the Great Plains. It is... Indian Fights And Fighters, by Cyrus Townsend Brady, L.L.D., (soft copy reprint), University of Nebraska Press, © 1971, originally published by McClure, Philips & Co, © 1904.

Brady lived out in the West for years, interviewed both soldiers who fought in those many battles and a number of Indians from several tribes who were in the battles. The Battle at the Little Big Horn River is covered extensively from a number of participants who participated with Benteen and Reno, and there are some conflicting interviews by officers and soldiers, including some of the Indian participants. Especially interesting is the information regarding Reno, and his alleged cowardly actions and disobeying of Custer's orders.

As for "Save the last bullet for yourself, " there are many references to that statement in the books written, especially by those written many years ago by authors who interviewed soldiers who fought in those Indian war battles. Here is one example from the book I just noted, regarding the fight on Long Trail Ridge, several miles from Fort Phil Kearny. This was known as the Fetterman Massacre, December, 1867..

"[U.S. Capt. Ferde H.] Brown and [U.S. Capt. W.J.] Fetterman were found lying side by side, each with a bullet wound in the left temple. Their heads were burned and filled with powder around the wounds. Seeing that all was lost, they had evidently stood face too face and each had shot the other dead with his revolver. They had both sworn to die rather than be taken alive by the Indians, and in the last extremity they had carried out their vows."

If one reads of the horrendous torture committed by various Indian tribes against the white people they captured, it is very easy to see why it was a general idea to "Save the last bullet for yourself."

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[Crawdad1]

One of the better History Channel programs, I think it was, did a real archeological study of the battle site. Found all kinds of spent bullets that proved what kind of firearms the Indians had. A lot of .52's, as I recall.

I saw that show and I agree that was good information. They also discovered brass casing and place small flags to pinpoint sites of individual shooters.

But why didn't they go to various Museums to review some of the firearms that the Indians had?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Checked out a youtube video regarding cartidges and bullets found at the battleground. It said that they found 47 different types of bullets, most likely from the Indians, from 75 calibre smoothbore rb to contemporary sidearm and rifle bullets of that period. Most of the cartridges attributed to the Indians were found from positions of cover and not in open ground.

 

[Tommygunn]

I have heard the "tale" from various writers/historians based on Indian accounts that perhaps Custer was mortally wounded in the chest in an effort to ford the river and that in the subsequent confusion regrouped and moved Custer and the troop to the hill to defend themselves from the Indians who were now zeroing in on their position and on the offensive.

It is known that Custer had two bullet wounds, one to his chest (as noted) and the other to the side of his head (temple). This head wound suggests (but does not prove) a "finishing" shot -- that is the possibility an Indian shot his immobile body in the head simply to assure that he was dead.
There were other atrocities commited upon his corpse. Most of his clothing had been stolen, the tips of some fingers had been amputated, Indian women had punctured his eardrums with sewing awls, and one pretty grusome though poshumous wound that is seldom mentioned and covered up in the contemporary news so as to spare Libby Custer's feelings; an arrow had been shoved up Custer's "male organ."

...I still would like to read a good book on how available was ammunition whether cartridge or otherwise, in the old west. The shear vastness of empty land even today must have been a nightmare for travelers back then to supply themselves with enough ammunition. But, did they really need to shoot that much out there?

A lot of archeological work has been done on the battlesite. In some cases bullets have actually been matched to specific firearms where they are available; more importantly bukllets proved to have been fired from the same rifle have often been found various places, allowing historians to deduce pathways certain individuals or groups pursued during the battle. All this is pretty interesting stuff to people who are interested in this ugly historical battle.
One thing we have realized is that there were in fact more Indians at the LBH equiped with then modern lever-action rifles than Custer had men in the five companies with him on Battle Ridge.

You are correct. Also, remember that many of the bodies of Custer's troopers were riddled with multiple mortal arrow wounds. So between arrows and the Indians arms, whether ancient or contemporary to that period, and perhaps as many as 2000 Indian warriors picking off the troopers one by one from the cover of the various draws and coulees doomed those 5 companies.

One theory I have heard is that the Indians made terrific use of the rugged terrain of coulees and hills around the area. Today we think the bow and arrow is a primitive paleolithic weapon, but consider that it has some advantages;

All rifles, the 7th cavalry weapons, are "line of sight" weapons. While we know a good rifleman can account for "bullet drop" at a distance he still is pretty much limited to shooting at what he sees, be it over a trapdoor's iron sights or through the most up to date scope on his Remington 700.
The bow and arrow and be used to "arc" an arrow over a hill, and it will aerodynamically fall arrow-first with yet still great force. It is believed groups of Indians armed with only bow & arrow would hide in a coulee and collectively "arc" their arrows over the hill, knowing that they would be falling amongst the 7th cavalry troopers.
While it could not be guaranteed any one arrow would hit, the men on the receiving end had no real defense against this kind of "aerial" bombardment. Plus, they would of course be unable to return fire as they were equiped only with "line of sight" weapons.
I am sure this would be very dispiriting.

 

[StrawHat]

I recall reading that Indians were able to reload much of the ammunition they needed. Even the rimfire cartridges. Necessity makes things possible.

 

[rodwha]

"I recall reading that Indians were able to reload much of the ammunition they needed. Even the rimfire cartridges. Necessity makes things possible."

I figured there wasn't a such thing as reloading back then. I assumed ammo was only factory made. But I'm surprised that Indians would have been able to get their hands on the equipment needed.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

Custer last stand

PBS (Public Broadcast Service) which is aneducational network, not given to rumors of events, do their best to report and portray the truth.
Did a series on custer in 2012.
If the below link is the right one I am thinking of. The people that produced it.
Took White man accounts of who was where and what happened and the Indian
versions, which inthe past was pretty much discounted, as afterall they were just uneducated backwards savages in the times.
They looked at the scene as a forensic analyst would.
Trying to get the evidence they found on site to match up with reports.

If this link isn't the correct one, I'm sure those of you with Netflix can scan their menus and find one.

http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/American-Experience-Custer-s-Last-Stand/70225301

 

[Tommygunn]

"I recall reading that Indians were able to reload much of the ammunition they needed. Even the rimfire cartridges. Necessity makes things possible."

I figured there wasn't a such thing as reloading back then. I assumed ammo was only factory made. But I'm surprised that Indians would have been able to get their hands on the equipment needed.

Reloading was actually very common back then, except it really required centerfire ammo to do it.
Winchester marketed the 1873 rifle/carbine in .44-40 that year. They also sold a small hand tool that allowed the owner to reload .44-40 cases.
Store-bought ammo was a good source of empty cases after the initial round was fired. It was said among hunters (atleast) that only "tyros" shot only store-bought stuff.
Future President Teddy Roosevelt, while in the west, learned to reload, and was among the first civilians to use the then modern "smokeless" powders that were being developed. Those powders showed up first in military calibers.
The idea that "only tyros shot storebought stuff" may have been rhetoric or exxageration, since I'm sure many people DID use store bought or "factory" ammo, but it is really true that reloading was very common as well.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Checkout the YouTube video Custers Last Stand-Battlefield Detectives, which I think is the same as Unsolved Mysteries-Custers Last Stand. You have to wait until the end , but they found few Army cartridge cases on Last Stand Hill where Custer and 40 troopers were found (out of ammo...quiene sabe??). They also speculate that perhaps 28 troopers made a desperate attempt to escape down Deep Ravine frim Last Stand Hill in a running battle and this was the real Last Stand, as there were numerous Indian cartridges on top of the ravine. They indicate that the remains of these troopers have yet to be found. Also, the Indians perhaps had as many as 200 repeating rifles, likely Henry lever guns, based on their examination of the cartridge casings found.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Actually the Indians were adept at reloading rim fire ammo without tools. About 35 years ago, a prairie fire burned the battle field and many shell cases were found and indicated different skirmish lines than had been previously thought. One of the discoveries was rim fire ammo with evidence that the rims had been indented and bent out again for reloading. A old nail with a head could be used to bend out the indentations on the case rim. One professor used the heads of old fashioned matches mixed in a slurry, a few drops placed in each rim fire case and set in the sun to dry. Then the cases filled with powder and a round ball thumbed in the end. Some of the cases appeared to have been refired a half dozen times.

In addition, Custer's men still had trapdoor rifles and balloon head ammo. The sloppy chambers of the trapdoors would cake with powder fouling and the cases would stick and the extractor would tear the balloon head rim with out extracting the shell. The same difficulty was noted ten years earlier at the wagon box fight and in Africa by the Brits with Martini Enfields in the Anglo Zulu wars. After five to seven shots the guns had to be chamber cleaned to keep functioning.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Look for the book titled "Old Jules". It tells of the life of Jules Ami Sandoz settling in the sand hills of Nebraska in the 1880's. He was a Swiss immigrant who used a Swiss Vetterli rimfire rifle and reloaded his own cartridges for it as he was not close to a store. Many things that are viewed as impossible today due to our easy lifestyle were everyday events back when ones very existence depended on such skills.