Be a sheepdog!

[Soybomb]

I don't know I feel like in the fight for ccw I do a fair share of "concealed carry holders just want to protect themselves, they're not trying to play police" but when we start having ccw holders saying they're protecting others that argument becomes a little tougher. I can't say I'm a big fan of the "sheepdog" thing.

 

[Sistema1927]

Hmmm, my choice wasn't in the poll, so I guess that I can't vote.

 

[Gator]

"To hell with the sheepdogs!! To arms Sheep!! To arms!!"

+1

I also agree with what Cosmoline said about Grossman....the Army must be so embarrassed...

 

[fast eddie]

I agree it's foolhardy to advertise that you are carrying.

Jorg, That's a badge I would pay for; it's hillarious!

 

[obxned]

Sorry, I just don't feel comfortable with the whole idea.

 

[jlbraun]

Bad idea. Using Grossman's ideology, even worse. I've read "On Combat" and "On Killing", and while there's some useful stuff there, he falls well to the wrong side of the fence when it comes to actually holding people responsible for their actions. The sheepdog idea implies different "classes" of people, and the idea that "some are more equal than others." No thanks.

One armed sheep here that don't need a pin.

 

[JLelli]

For some reason, the Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf cartoons come to mind.

 

[hexidismal]

First of all, Like Cosmo and others I think it's a very bad idea.

Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, I think if I wore that people would think I was.. I don't know, into dog shows or something. And I REALLY can't have that !

 

[helpless]

I agree that people might think I was into dog shows.


I am not.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[mike101]

What's wrong with dog shows?

Andrew, I guess I can understand the thought behind the pin. It would be a way for us all to know who our buddies are in a crowd. But, I think it's unwise.

It wouldn't be long before the antis found out what they meant. All you need is for some hysterical, Bradyite-Moron-Million-Mom-Maddmother to start ranting on you, when she sees you wearing your pin at the mall. Then, some of your neighbors will start forbidding their kids to play with your kids. I actually have an idiot-anti neighbor (who doesn't know I have guns), who told me he wouldn't let his kids play at the house of anyone who owned a gun(s). As we all know, guns have majical properties, and go off by themselves, indescriminately killing hundreds of children every week. It just seems like asking for trouble.

Of course, I live in NJ, so it might not be as bad where you live. Still, I don't think it's wise to advertise.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Golly -- that was not the reaction I expected.

Hell I am going to run as fast as I can the other direction if I see a CCW Badge or any other ID method!

In fact I have left such a situation just recently when Wanna Be Chest Thumpers showed up with CCW badges!!

A doggy pin isn't a "badge," any more than a THR hat or shirt. Do you run when you see a THR hat?

(In fact, I tried to get a THR pin off the ground, but nothing ever came of it: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=41638#post1781867 )


The dog is, I think, a very low-key recognition sign. I'm not worried that "word is going to get out."

If you don't like the sheepdog idea, I completely understand and respect that. Don't order one.

 

[boomvark]

If you don't like the sheepdog idea, I completely understand and respect that. Don't order one.

Okay.

Seriously, it strikes me as coming a little too close to advertising something that, by definition, isn't supposed to be advertised. YM obviously Vs, and that's fine.

My own misgivings are also related to my lack of enthusiasm for Grossman's analogy in general. Unless I'm misinterpreting him wildly, his "sheepdogs" are sworn military and police, full stop. I've never cared for that view, with its implied (and deeply authoritarian) assumption that each of us is either a soldier/cop, a criminal, or an essentially mindless herd animal.

I can't find the citation now, so take this with the appropriate dose of salt, but as far as I know Col. Grossman isn't all that keen on civilian firearms ownership in general.

On the other hand, I'd be just fine with, say, a THR ballcap. In fact, I'd buy at least two.

 

[wooderson]

Can I get one with a beagle?

 

[jselvy]

I am not a Wolf--I don't prey on the helpless
I am not a sheep--I think,act, and reason for myself
I am not a sheepdog--I have NO obligation to defend those who will not defend themselves.
So what am I in your little scheme?
And while you're at it I just want to be left the hell alone.

Jefferson

 

[wooderson]

'Concealed means concealed' and 'advertising that you're carrying' - really, not so much in this case. No one outside of some Internet commandos is going to have the faintest clue what that little pin means.

Worse than bragging that you're carrying, it's ego masturbation. You're one of the few, the elite, the, uh, dudes who took an eight-hour class and passed a frighteningly easy shooting test. Oooh-rah or whatever, I guess.

The notion that gun owners - or concealed carrier - are some breed above and apart from the average person is just insultingly stupid to everyone involved, 'sheep' or 'sheepdog.'

 

[TnRebel]

this is my every day hat and I will buy one for it and be damned who knows I carry

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/TnRebel/?action=view&current=IM000580.jpg

 

[JerryM]

I agree with those who stress that CHL holders are not off duty LEOs, and should not try to act as such. I almost have the feeling that some are looking for an excuse to draw their guns, and be a hero.

It would be pretty easy for a prosecutor or lawyer to paint you as one who was looking for trouble if you make the point that you are a sheepdog. You have no duty, and in many instances should not try, to protect others. Of course the circumstances greatly influence the decision to intervene. In some cases you would not really know who the BG is. Also you are responsible if your intervention results in others getting shot.

I also do not condone the sheepdog concept. Just be who and what you are, and don't try to be a hero. Do what seems proper under the circumstance. Personally I think the sheepdog thinking is somewhat pompous, and makes one want to be the knight in shining armor, and superior to those you see as sheep.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[PressCheck]

Linky no worky.

 

[PressCheck]

No thanks.

 

[Lew]

Is just today, or is everyone on this board getting grouchy? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Personally I think the sheepdog thinking is somewhat pompous, and makes one want to be the knight in shining armor, and superior to those you see as sheep.

You don't have to agree with Grossman, but you might want to read before passing judgment.

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

...

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking.

When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers.

In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers -- athletes, business people and parents -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

Here's the whole thing:

http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

 

[sm]

JerryM wrote:
I agree with those who stress that CHL holders are not off duty LEOs, and should not try to act as such. I almost have the feeling that some are looking for an excuse to draw their guns, and be a hero.

Well said!

--

I respectfully disagree with Mr. Grossman.
I am not a sheep dog, and do not want to be called one.

My take is, there are Responsible Persons, Ladies, Men, young, old, whole of health and physically limited.

These persons may be Veterans, Active Duty in the Military. They may be retired LEO, or Active LEO.
They may be single ladies, single moms, the widow.
The young man with a birth defect that has to use power assist chairs, or the elderly widower using a cane.

Housewives, Single Professional Ladies, Nurses, Rad Techs, Secretaries, Whores, Preacher's Wives, Teachers, and any and all job descriptions.

Men, from Nurses, to Doctors to plumbers, to...


There is code these people live, it comes from deep within them.
NOTHING on the exterior can change the deep within.

A fireman does not need a badge, or uniform to run TO the fire...
LEO does not need a uniform, badge, gun to run TOWARD gunfire...
Military person does not need rank, uniform, a "job description" ,... be they active, retired, on vacation to run toward Evil.

There is a look in the eye, that runs from the depth of their very being.
A set of jaw, a very slight nod of the head that comes from this depth as well.

Titles don't mean spit to me.

One either has it, or they don't.

Not all "events" are solved by a gun.

One does know another is a housewife that knows CPR and steps up to the plate, until she says she does.
One does not know that lady in jeans and T shirt is Doctor until she ID's herself.
One does not know that guy in cowboy boots and khaki britches is a Marine, now a Firefighter visiting from out of town, until he ID's himself, and he steps up to the plate.

That guy in jeans, tennis shoes, retired Army, now a LEO, with a cute grandkid, his daughter, his wife, and son around a table in a restaurant from out of town, are to meet another, they have never met.
The eyes meet, the jaw sets, a slight nod, and these two KNOW they are of like kind, and a seat is offered.

I was not wearing a CCW badge, and Jeff was not wearing a uniform, or any kind of badge when we met.
WE Knew!!

Ditto with Preacherman, and too many others I have met on this board.

FWIW, Too many folks I have met on this board , one did not know they were CCW-ing, and we don't know what guns were being carried, how many, or how many reloads - if any.
Honest? We don't care what gun, what ammo, or how many rounds.

Heck, if in a setting where a gun is not allowed, so what? It ain't the gun, it is the mindset. Something will work, if need be.

Heck "we" look like a bunch at a family re-union, old school chums, co-workers on a business meeting, heck I being a guy, look like a uncle, brother, or "sorta old to with a girl that young".

Dead Serious when I say I have left the area when folks with CCW Badges showed up...
When Wannabe's showed up talking and carrying themselves as they do.

I have said "no thank" you to learning to shoot, learning to shoot a shotgun, going hunting, and even just being invited to get a cup of coffee to these folks.

WE have sat down at a restaurant, and about to order , and a CCW Badge and buds enter.
I have grabbed a 3 year old and "we are leaving" and we packed up and went elsewhere to eat.

WE have stayed when we knew the gang-bangers were packing, that entered while in the midst of eating.
Eyes meet, and there is an "understanding" and the gang- bangers left.

 

[Jamie C.]

If we just absolutely have to have an animal assigned to us as CCW'ers, I want.... a porcupine.

That's right, something prickly, that has no interest in sheep or wolves, and just doesn't want to be fu... uh... bothered.

I've done my bit wearing a badge, and I have no need or desire to ever do it again. The rest of the world can either get it's collective head out of it's backside, or suffer the consequences. It's all the same to me.
One way or the other, I'll take no further part in screwing up Natural Selection or Prof. Darwin's plans/rules.

And no, Lew, I'm not "getting" grouchy... Been that way for quite a long time now.



J.C.

 

[sm]

Jamie C.,
Great Post!


I always liked the Honey Badger, then again I read Ruark.

Porcupine works...

Granted I often wore a bandanna with the Gadsden Flag back in the day...

 

[whited]

.

I'm glad to read that this whole concept is not favored by other folks on this board.

Its creepy.

I don't want any of those pins.