I stand corrected. The point of my post isn't so much to say "I'm right and you're wrong" as it is to suggest the proper response to "What gun for bear" might not be something like "Oh yah, get yourself a .45/.357/_____ and everything will be just peachy." Gun 4 Fun is right in also pointing out there are experts on the topic out there, and one would do well to heed what they have to say.
Bear/Hiking gun
- Thread starter SniperStraz
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Wolfeye
Member
My wife carries bear spray. I carry a .357. We hike around Washington and occassionally in SE Alaska, and I've never seen a brownbear. Only seen a blackbear once. Pack of wolves, once. Pack of wild dogs, twice. Humans, lots. The dogs had me nervous, but not the wolves; wolves are skittish while the dogs visibly had a gangster mentality. I could see it in their eyes. Human encounters were by far the most dangerous, though, as one time they were drunk and shooting in our direction.
My weapon of choice is a medium-barreled .357 loaded with 180 gr hardcasts, with some .38+p's in a couple of speedloaders. It's enough to feel like "enough gun" for the woods without going overboard.
My weapon of choice is a medium-barreled .357 loaded with 180 gr hardcasts, with some .38+p's in a couple of speedloaders. It's enough to feel like "enough gun" for the woods without going overboard.
Doc_Jude
Member
Barring grizzlies, S&W 686P 4" barrel, 7rnds .357, with two speed loaders on the belt.
GOOD TO GO!
GOOD TO GO!
dmazur
Member
After considerable reading I now carry bear deterrent spray, follow all the recommended guidelines for staying away from bears and not attracting bears to camp, and have a .44 Magnum for "Plan B".
For black bears, not grizzlies...
For black bears, not grizzlies...
wheelgunslinger
Member
To answer your question, I carry a 357 mag when I carry in the woods.
It's good for the biggest predators and the two legged ones.
In addition to the idea of a bear attack, you also have to consider that here in the southeast we still have wild animals documented as having, spreading, and dieing from rabies. So, you chance of running across a rabid animal is about that of a bear attack. Slim, but possible.
357 is a good catch all for hiking east of the miss river.
But then so is a cold steel boar spear.
It's good for the biggest predators and the two legged ones.
In addition to the idea of a bear attack, you also have to consider that here in the southeast we still have wild animals documented as having, spreading, and dieing from rabies. So, you chance of running across a rabid animal is about that of a bear attack. Slim, but possible.
357 is a good catch all for hiking east of the miss river.
But then so is a cold steel boar spear.
dirt_j00
Member
SniperStraz - I don't fault you wanting to carry protection while in the wild.
As someone who has actually walked up on a mother bear and her cubs while on the AT, you won't catch me out hiking in the Smokies w/o my .44. (Sorry, the local news crew wasn't there to document this, nor did I manage to whip out my Kodak and ask one of the cubs to cheese as it shimmied up a tree.)
Unlike others who would have you play dead (may not have to pretend for long), or run like a maniac with your head on fire (could work), I would rather be prepared with a large caliber handgun and/or bear spray. (The gun will stop 2-legged predators too.) A shotgun would be better, true, but you might draw unwanted attention.
SIDE NOTE: It is interesting how many folks advocate handguns for SD, but then poo-poo anyone who may ever think of buying one for hiking. I understand the physical differences between the two, but the principle would be the same, no? I mean human BGs can reason - bears can't.
EDIT - Not trying to be argumentative; just noting an observation.
As someone who has actually walked up on a mother bear and her cubs while on the AT, you won't catch me out hiking in the Smokies w/o my .44. (Sorry, the local news crew wasn't there to document this, nor did I manage to whip out my Kodak and ask one of the cubs to cheese as it shimmied up a tree.)
Unlike others who would have you play dead (may not have to pretend for long), or run like a maniac with your head on fire (could work), I would rather be prepared with a large caliber handgun and/or bear spray. (The gun will stop 2-legged predators too.) A shotgun would be better, true, but you might draw unwanted attention.
SIDE NOTE: It is interesting how many folks advocate handguns for SD, but then poo-poo anyone who may ever think of buying one for hiking. I understand the physical differences between the two, but the principle would be the same, no? I mean human BGs can reason - bears can't.
EDIT - Not trying to be argumentative; just noting an observation.
No one's teeing off on anyone for wanting a handgun for hiking. I carry one ore two myself depending on where I'm going exploring. To whit, this discussion is more specific than that though; for we're not talking about dispatching a rabid coyote, or stumbling onto a drug smuggler. Neigh, we're talking about shooting a charging bear with a handgun. Since most charges start at 14 feet (avg distance at which the person walks up on and surprises the bear) and the animal can quickly accelerate to 44 feet per second, how do you practice for something like that? Maybe those of you who only shouted out a caliber earlier can jump in here and explain.
dirt_j00
Member
I'm with you. I guess the point of my side note is: why do we view SD scenarios so differently from a bear encounter in the woods?
- Both BGs and bears usually have the element of surprise.
- Both usually at close range.
- BGs may be slower, but may be armed.
- Bears present a larger target (kind-of).
- Bears didn't come looking for you to do you harm.
Just a couple thoughts. I suppose it goes back to being prepared & practicing w/ your weapon
Again not trying to be argumentative, just typing out loud. I don't condon fantasizing about killing bears or hiking with raw meat in your Jansport.
FYI - I'm my encounter, I was fortunate that the sow ran down the side of the mountain. I was not carrying bear spray or a gun. Just a hiking stick.
SniperStraz - sorry to hijack your thread. Get some bear spray. Thinking over.
woad_yurt
Member
Just wondering:
What about 7.62X25? It's a better penetrator than a .357. It was the only round that sailed through a Kevlar helmet for the Box o' Truth guys. It severely outperformed a .357 for them. Indeed, the .357 was second best but it wasn't a close second at all.
What about 7.62X25? It's a better penetrator than a .357. It was the only round that sailed through a Kevlar helmet for the Box o' Truth guys. It severely outperformed a .357 for them. Indeed, the .357 was second best but it wasn't a close second at all.
Last year I watched an episode of Personal Defense TV that was devoted to defense against dangerous animals. If memory serves it showed training at GunSite. They said that in some areas where their Government employee clients go on foot, having a defense against black bears is prudent.
For defense against black bear, they recommended a Marlin Guide Gun or a twelve gauge shotgun loaded with slugs, backed up by a .44 Magnum revolver in case of jams. They used motorized bear silhouette targets that moved extremely quickly. Forget well-placed shots.
For hunting grizzly bear, Craig Boddington says that a .30-'06 will take out a smaller bear, but that a .375 H&H or .416 would be better against the big ones. Seems to me that stopping a charging bear would call for something more than would hunting.
The muzzle energy of an '06 is about two and a half times that of a .44 Magnum. The .375 ups the '06 by another forty percent.
Search on this or other forums (fora) for discussions of using handguns on grizzly. Not recommended at all, by most of the cognoscenti.
I agree with others that learning about bears is step one. Step two would be avoidance.
For defense against black bear, they recommended a Marlin Guide Gun or a twelve gauge shotgun loaded with slugs, backed up by a .44 Magnum revolver in case of jams. They used motorized bear silhouette targets that moved extremely quickly. Forget well-placed shots.
For hunting grizzly bear, Craig Boddington says that a .30-'06 will take out a smaller bear, but that a .375 H&H or .416 would be better against the big ones. Seems to me that stopping a charging bear would call for something more than would hunting.
The muzzle energy of an '06 is about two and a half times that of a .44 Magnum. The .375 ups the '06 by another forty percent.
Search on this or other forums (fora) for discussions of using handguns on grizzly. Not recommended at all, by most of the cognoscenti.
I agree with others that learning about bears is step one. Step two would be avoidance.
Most of my hiking is in grizzly country. In addition to my bear spray my choice of carry is either a 329 in 44 Magnum, a 500 Smith or a Glock 20. Not only are there bears in the area, there are wolves, cougars, moose and potential BG's. If the need arises I would rather be armed with something than nothing at all.
Little bullets may penetrate, but on large animals they don't do much.
Even with shot placement, if a bear can survive for 10 minutes with the wound, you're screwed. Less than 10 minutes. Killing game is not equivalent to stopping an animal attack.
Wolfeye
Member
While I completely agree that rifles & shotguns stand a much better chance at stopping a charge, and that handguns are better suited as backups (or to carry when your hands are full, as in fishing), longarms really aren't enjoyable to pack during a hike. There are lightweight versions of suitable longarms that some people carry, but they're still bulky, awkward, and twice as heavy as a mid-sized revolver. I still stand by my recommendation that .357 is "good enough", at least in most parts of the country. It's a compromise, yes, but it makes many people happy.
My own solution to the "what if you get charged by a grizzly?" question is that I simply don't go there; it's not hard to find out what the bear population is like in the places a person wants to hike. For me, areas like Kodiak Island and mainland AK are nixed from my list of places to see. When I asked the WA dept. of fish & game about bears, they told me there are only about 15 grizzlies along the Cascade range. When I heard that, I axed my plans to buy a .454 and kept my SP101.
My own solution to the "what if you get charged by a grizzly?" question is that I simply don't go there; it's not hard to find out what the bear population is like in the places a person wants to hike. For me, areas like Kodiak Island and mainland AK are nixed from my list of places to see. When I asked the WA dept. of fish & game about bears, they told me there are only about 15 grizzlies along the Cascade range. When I heard that, I axed my plans to buy a .454 and kept my SP101.
Peakbagger46
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I carry my smith 340m&p airweight in the woods her in CO. Loaded with the first shot being "sand shot" for snakes and the last four being 180gr cast cores, I feel pretty safe against lions and black bear... there are better options out there, but the little smith sure is easy to carry around.
SwampWolf
Member
And your answer to defending against a charging bear is what? Dropping down and assuming the fetal position , all the while trying not to say "ouch" as the bear bites you? He might keep the biting up until he thinks you're dead and dead people don't yelp. Of course, he just may go ahead and eat you no matter how strangely mute you remain.
Carrying a handgun in bear country makes sense because it may be the only weapon that will be "at hand" when the trouble starts. Not all charges are initiated at fourteen feet when you surprise a bear as you round the bend. There may be many occasions when a hiker/fisherman has ample time to prepare in advance of a charge. Nobody I know of wants to shoot a charging bear with a rifle, let alone a pistol. But desperate times call for desperate measures. And those of you who advocate saving the last round for yourself are truly speaking for yourself. My last round goes to the guy who started the fray
showmebob
Member
I once read an account of a Wildlife officer who was releasing a captured and transplanted grizzly from a cage. The bear jumped out of the cage and turned to attack the officer. The officer shot him 6 times with a 357 killing the bear.
I live in CO in probably the worst part for bear attacks. There have been many within a 50 mile radius. Not one that I can recall was a situation where the black bear charged. Most were sleeping and had a bear enter or bite them through the tent. In one case a bear was trying to break into a camper with the guy inside. He shot through the door and pissed the bear off. Unfortunately, the bear killed and ate him.
The last grizz attack was a case of a grizz attacking a bow hunter that I know personally. The bow hunter had the guts (and luck) to grab an arrow out of his quiver while the bear was chewing on him on the ground. He stabbed the bear in the neck and killed it.
I have another friend who lives in the same town as I do that was bow hunting with another friend and came upon a sow and 2 cubs. She bluff charged them all the way off the mountain but never attacked.
IMHO DON'T believe the crap that the wildlife departments tell you about bears. They are protecting the bears, making every encounter the humans fault. I think thats BS. There are good humans and bad. There are good bears and bad. I could go on about this but that is not what this thread is about.
Carry what you want for humans or bears, just do it!
I live in CO in probably the worst part for bear attacks. There have been many within a 50 mile radius. Not one that I can recall was a situation where the black bear charged. Most were sleeping and had a bear enter or bite them through the tent. In one case a bear was trying to break into a camper with the guy inside. He shot through the door and pissed the bear off. Unfortunately, the bear killed and ate him.
The last grizz attack was a case of a grizz attacking a bow hunter that I know personally. The bow hunter had the guts (and luck) to grab an arrow out of his quiver while the bear was chewing on him on the ground. He stabbed the bear in the neck and killed it.
I have another friend who lives in the same town as I do that was bow hunting with another friend and came upon a sow and 2 cubs. She bluff charged them all the way off the mountain but never attacked.
IMHO DON'T believe the crap that the wildlife departments tell you about bears. They are protecting the bears, making every encounter the humans fault. I think thats BS. There are good humans and bad. There are good bears and bad. I could go on about this but that is not what this thread is about.
Carry what you want for humans or bears, just do it!
I have first hand knowledge of a predatory black bear attack that occurred in the Cherokee National Forest on Chilhowee Mountain. You guys probably read about the little girl that was killed there a few years ago.
A vacationing mother and her two children were hiking on the Benton Mckay trail to see the scenic Benton Falls. A 300 lb male black bear flanked the family for a while, then it made its move. It went after the little girl, and the mother beat it, kicked it, and fought with everything she had to drive it away. The little boy ran, and was also attacked. Both the mother and the little boy were hospitalized, and the little girl was carried away, killed, and partially eaten. A search party of local officers and park personnel were dispatched, but her body was not found until the next day - with the the bear still guarding the body. The bear was shot at with a .380 auto, and ran away. It was later trapped, killed, and the intestinal contents proved by crime lab DNA testing that it was in fact the killer.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I think any reasonable pistol or revolver could have prevented the death of this little girl. I never hike without my Glock 10mm G20 or S&W .44 629 Mountain Gun. What biological "facts" or "knowledge" would have helped this situation? I live in that area, and absolutely KNOW (don't ask me how) that my G20 will make a predatory black bear so tame that he can't even chase away the vultures.
A vacationing mother and her two children were hiking on the Benton Mckay trail to see the scenic Benton Falls. A 300 lb male black bear flanked the family for a while, then it made its move. It went after the little girl, and the mother beat it, kicked it, and fought with everything she had to drive it away. The little boy ran, and was also attacked. Both the mother and the little boy were hospitalized, and the little girl was carried away, killed, and partially eaten. A search party of local officers and park personnel were dispatched, but her body was not found until the next day - with the the bear still guarding the body. The bear was shot at with a .380 auto, and ran away. It was later trapped, killed, and the intestinal contents proved by crime lab DNA testing that it was in fact the killer.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I think any reasonable pistol or revolver could have prevented the death of this little girl. I never hike without my Glock 10mm G20 or S&W .44 629 Mountain Gun. What biological "facts" or "knowledge" would have helped this situation? I live in that area, and absolutely KNOW (don't ask me how) that my G20 will make a predatory black bear so tame that he can't even chase away the vultures.
thunder173
Member
I have a healthy regard for black bear. If it's GOTTA be a handgun,...make mine a .44 please. Why? Becuse they don't make a .54! Oh,...wait,...they DO!! it a .454!!!
David E
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- 7,459
If bears were a real concern, then nothing less than a .44 would do.
Yes, they make a .500, but you need to:
1) Have it WITH you
2) Be able to shoot it accurately !
A .44 or stout loaded .45 Colt is the upper limit for most people when it comes to accurate, rapid fire.
.
Yes, they make a .500, but you need to:
1) Have it WITH you
2) Be able to shoot it accurately !
A .44 or stout loaded .45 Colt is the upper limit for most people when it comes to accurate, rapid fire.
.
I haven't given it much thought, but it would be more involved than putting a couple digits side by side and thinking I'm good. I'd probably start by figuring out what I could do to mitigate the chances of me being in that circumstance to begin with, then from there go with some research about what's worked and what hasn't for others who ended up in that extraordinary circumstance. Finally, I'd go for the largest caliber I could point shoot quickly/semi-accurately and practice as much as time and budget would allow. Similarly, I'd encourage a new CC permit holder to think about how to avoid having to use his gun rather than lie awake at night pondering 9mm vs. .45.
SwampWolf
Member
Can't argue with any of that except to say I must have missed the part where there was "a new CC permit holder" tossing and turning the night away, fretting over the size of the hole in the barrel of his gun. I reread the thread's author's query and he's not the neophyte worry wart you described (unless maybe you know the OP better than me). Oh, and one other thing: if you choose not to tread where there may be bears about by "mitigating the chances of (you) being in that circumstance to begin with", why you might be missing some of the most spectacular and scenic outdoor experience one could ever hope to have.
You didn't miss it. As stated, it was simile, not to be taken literally.
Please show where I described the author that way. I've spent the entire thread saying not that one should be worried, but that one should perhaps give a bit more forethought to the situation. See post 26 above. Whether anyone does or not is perfectly within their rights and not something worth caring about (unless the crew from Youtube is there...).
Wholeheartedly agree. Do a search for a thread I started about a year ago asking suggestions for a gun for hiking the US/Mexico border and you'll see what got me on this whole crazy "know before you go" kick.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
While WoodsWalking I would normally carry one of these.
A S&W 13 w/3" barrel, a Ruger SP101 w/2" barrel or my Custom S&W 65 with a 4" Standard barrel and Moonclips
A S&W 13 w/3" barrel, a Ruger SP101 w/2" barrel or my Custom S&W 65 with a 4" Standard barrel and Moonclips
wheelgunslinger
Member
I agree with this, and I'd add that it's curious how people want to feel they have a death ray strapped to them so they can actually tame the wild and take any significant percentage of death or harm out of the equation.
Earth is a dangerous place. A handgun will lessen your chances of death and dismemberment, but I kind of get off on the idea that being in the wild is just that.
And, as an avid hiker, the idea that I may not make it back home because of various reasons is part of the reality and thrill for me.
No handgun or rifle will give you a certain outcome. This is why I carry a 357 magnum. It's my cc weapon and plinker, so I know it back and forth. It's plenty to kill a black bear. It will kill a deer. And, it will kill a human if need be. But, it's no death ray and I'd never sell it as such.
Mankind survived in Bear infested environments for a long long time without hand cannons. Respect and knowledge go a long way toward keeping one alive. But, there are no guarantees.
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